Links to Dr Hayley D Quinn Resources
Reclaim Your Time and Energy: 6 Key Boundaries for Women Business Owners
Download here, completely FREE! https://drhayleydquinn.com/resources/
Book now available: https://drhayleydquinn.com/product/book/
Link to podcast mailing list: https://drhayleydquinn.com/podcast/
Group Coaching Waitlist: https://drhayleydquinn.myflodesk.com/timetothrivewaitlist
Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/drhayleydquinn
LinkedIn: https://www.linkedIn.com/in/dr-hayley-d-quinn-43386533
Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/drhayleydquinn
Connect with Kim James: https://www.buildwedge.com/
This transcript is computer generated and may contain errors and not be an exact representation of the audio
Hi this is Welcome to Self® and I’m your host, Dr Hayley D Quinn, the anti-burnout business coach. I’m a speaker, author, former clinical psychologist and a late identified auDHDer.
Welcome to Self ® is a podcast for business owners like you who want success but not at the cost of your well-being. This is about transforming self and transforming business. I’ll be here to remind you that you’re human first and as well as being a business owner, you have different roles in your life that need your attention and to manage those well, you need to take care of yourself in the best way possible.
Here you’ll learn about practices that’ll help you navigate not just your business but your non-work life as well and you’ll realise that you’re not alone in the ways you struggle. You’ll have your curiosity piqued on various topics as I chat with wonderful guests and bring you solo bite-sized episodes.
I’m here for service-based business owners and entrepreneurs like you, to help you increase your self-care and compassion, change your relationship with yourself and your business, and elevate your business to a new level so you can live the full and meaningful life you desire.
This is a place of nourishment, growth and helpful information. A place where you can learn ways to assist you and your business to thrive.
We’ll talk all things mindset, strategy and well-being and I’m so excited you’re here. If you haven’t already, go and hit subscribe so you don’t miss an episode.
So, let’s get started
Dr Hayley D Quinn: Hi, and welcome to another episode, and this week, I’m bringing you a conversation with another inspiring guest. I had the pleasure of hearing my next guest speak at the Digital Picnic Conference earlier this year, and when I found out she had a burnout story, I knew I had to invite her onto the podcast.
Just before I introduce my guest, I’m excited to announce that pre-orders are now open for my debut book, From Self-Neglect to Self-Compassion, A Compassionate Guide to Creating a Thriving Life. You can find the link to order in the show notes.
Now, let me introduce you to Kim Elizabeth James. Kim is the founder, co-founder of Wedge, a consultancy and tech company helping brands take the anxiety out of knowing when to post on social media. And let’s face it, I’m sure most of us have had that anxiety before.
Kim has also built a thriving personal brand on TikTok and Instagram, talking to career women on ambition, burnout, business, and the habits in between. Kim is a regular keynote speaker at conferences and workshops across APAC and based in Melbourne. It’s my pleasure to welcome Kim onto the podcast. Thank you so much for joining me, Kim.
Kim James: Thank you for having me! Happy to be here!
Dr Hayley D Quinn: You’re so welcome. So, before we start talking about burnout, can you give us a little bit of background, a little bit of insight into who you are?
Kim James: Yeah, for sure. So yeah, I’m Kim, as you said, so by day, I am the co-founder of a consulting and tech company called Wedge. Literally met my co-founder through LinkedIn, about a year ago, and then 6 months ago, we’d never met in person and figured, wow, we’re kind of building the same thing, why don’t we have a go and build a company with someone that, you know, we’ve never met in person, but… That’s definitely a very big part of my life right now. I’d definitely say I’m in a busy work season, but before that, I had been in corporate marketing, and also in the tech space, and before that, previously working in senior leadership, I was chief customer officer working with the government in technology. So, definitely, climbed the corporate ladder, and then now building a company of my own.
Dr Hayley D Quinn: That’s amazing! And I love that you, that sort of spontaneity of, like, hey, I’ve connected with somebody on LinkedIn, let’s start a company. There’s a lot of courage in that, I admire that, that’s fantastic.
So, I mentioned in the intro that you, you know, I’d found out that you did have a burnout story. So, can I ask, when did you first realize you were in burnout?
Kim James: I burnt out in 2021, so it’s crazy to even think that this was 4 years ago. It feels like it was another lifetime of a version of me, but then also something very recent. So I burnt out, and I think a key part of why I’m really passionate to talk about it, because there was one book at the library on burnout. There was no conversations, I’d never met anyone else that had… I definitely had a very, like, strong work ethic, but I also realized that it was a lot of my personality and a lot of my self-worth was very tied to being very good at my job as well. And I was in a workplace environment that definitely wasn’t what I would ideally want to lead now as having my own company. It’s not the workplace I would have wanted.
And yeah, I absolutely lost myself into work, lost myself into having good habits and that outside of work as well, and I… it went for probably about a year, and then I know the day that it happened, and I was already feeling it, you know. Physically, and that then, when you feel it physically, is because mentally it hadn’t caught up. And yeah, it hit the day that I was like, this is the day that I have hit from burnout.
Dr Hayley D Quinn: Yeah, wow. Gosh, so many of the things you talk about are so common. And also, you know, my burnout was in 2016, so I really resonate with that. There just weren’t conversations or information about it. And at the time, I was working as a psychologist, so I had a lot of shame around, you know, I should know what’s going on, I should understand all this. But there weren’t conversations, and that’s why I’m so passionate about bringing this information and doing this series on the podcast, because I think there are a lot of people experiencing this, and they don’t have the language for it, they’re not recognizing it. So, what were the signs and symptoms, looking back, that you now realize you had missed, or perhaps were minimizing or avoiding?
Kim James: There was definitely two parts to it. I think the main one was that I had definitely found out that if I was avoiding what it was mentally, it was coming up physically. So, like, I had a dermatitis on my face that wouldn’t go away. I had chronic insomnia in one year. I had slept five nights. Like, one year I’d slept 5 good nights sleep, so I was just, unfortunately, chronically, chronically insomnia. I had physical pain constantly, and it was actually my physio who had said to me, I remember I went to her on a Monday night, and I was just always in pain, and she was like, I can’t help you. She’s like, I can help you, obviously, today. She’s like, but you need to do something about this, because you keep turning up every day, and you’re so tense in your muscles every single day that you come, and we just do a bit, and then you come back next week. She’s like, you need to take this seriously. Like, your body is telling you that you’re not taking care of yourself.
So it was definitely those physical symptoms of where I was avoiding mentally. But also within that, I had very bad habits. I didn’t have boundaries at work. I didn’t have boundaries in my personal life. I was taking on projects that I thought that I could fix, but I didn’t have the resources or be in the leadership position to fix the problem, so I was just constantly stressed when I couldn’t control the environment to fix it.
And, also then mentally as well, you know, you’re aggravated by things. Everything is just… gets to a point where it feels numb, and that’s where I knew that I had hit burnt out, because I was sitting on my couch, and it was a Monday night, and I needed to be in the office at, like, 7am the next day, and I was just sitting there, and I was like, I don’t know where to go from here. I don’t know if I need to… I was literally googling, like, where… is there, like, somewhere I can go and check in? And I’m like, do I go back up home to Byron and check in somewhere for a week, like, what do I do? And luckily at the time, my direct manager had gone through something and did experience… So, I knew what I was going through, and she was very able to have the conversation with me, and she was like, you need to take two weeks off. Like, minimum, you need to take it off, we need to stop, because we can’t move forward. And I knew that it was burnout, because I was like, I genuinely can’t move forward from here. So, we agreed on that.
Two weeks off, got on the next morning, moved everything, was like, here’s everything, and just handed it on, and then I just was offline. Went to a doctor, and it was like, my vitals were impacted. Obviously, from not sleeping for so long, that was all completely impacted. And then I remember that day I did a flow tank, and that was the first time I’d slept in so long, but that was only the beginning of the journey. That was only the, part one when I’d realized this was full-blown burnout, and… I took the photos that I share on social now, I didn’t have a social presence back then, like, I had private accounts. They were not taken to show anyone. I took those photos of myself and said, I will never get back to this place that I am now, and I never have since.
Dr Hayley D Quinn: Yeah. Gosh, I can… I can so relate to that. It’s… once you’ve been there, you do not want to go back, hey? And I think, you know, I love that you’ve talked about the different, sort of, domains in your life, where it was impacting you. And the sort of things that we ignore. And then the body does respond, right? The body holds the stress. The body will keep giving you messages. I sort of talk about it’ll start to whisper to you, and if you don’t listen, then it’ll speak louder, and then it’ll start yelling at you, and it’s like, well, now you’re gonna pay attention, then it puts you flat on your back.
And I think you make a really good point, because if we get to the point where we’re burnt out, changing a few things isn’t gonna do it. You have to stop. I had to. I had to walk away from the business that I had. And the impact of that is huge, not only on the, sort of, day-to-day stuff, but I think on our identity and how we feel about ourselves as well, right? What do you think was the biggest impact it had on you?
Kim James: I didn’t think that I could get better. Like, I just was like, is this who I am now? There was just so much that, you know, I missed the version of my previous self, and I missed the version that I was. I think a really key thing of this was that I did burn out during lockdown, so, you know, that’s why a lot of the things that did make me me outside of work were taken away from me. I couldn’t see my family because they were interstate. I couldn’t go to the gym because they were shut, so all of the little things that made me me, I didn’t have access to, but I genuinely just remember thinking, this is who I am now. Like, I… when am I going to feel better? And I would just get really kind of, like, nervous, thinking, do I ever get through this? And a really key part of that was, like, as you said, yeah, I stepped away, but I couldn’t take 3 or 6 months off. I couldn’t quit my job. I wasn’t in a financial position to do so. I lived interstate, I couldn’t move home with my parents, so I had to take the, what is the right now for a quick reset?
But I’m also extremely Type A, so I was like, okay, what is the goalpost? Like, what is the plan moving forward? And I remember, there was only one book at the library, one book on burnout. There was nothing else. I’d never met anyone that recovered. And that one book, and I think there was, like, two website articles, said burnout can take three to five years to recover. And I was like, no, it won’t. I’ll be done in, like, a few months. No, no. I remember, so that was 2021, and I remember I had just come home from a huge work trip in Feb of 2023, and I was like, oh, I’m not burnt out anymore. And it really… it genuinely took me over 2 years to be able to recover.
Dr Hayley D Quinn: Yeah, I’m not surprised in the slightest, by that, because… and again, the reason I’m so passionate about burnout prevention… Yes. …is that recovery costs time, money, energy, resources, all sorts. It’s so much easier to put things in place to prevent this than it is to recover from it, and it has such a long-term impact. I’m so glad that you had that moment of realizing. I had that myself as well, and found myself working overseas and kind of wandering around, I was in New York, wandering around Central Park, thinking, oh, how have I gone from the woman that couldn’t get off the couch to the woman who’s walking around New York, waiting to go to an event to speak, and it… that was a really lovely moment, but I… again, I really relate when you were saying about that fear of, is this ever gonna be different? Like, is this my life now? It’s scary, right?
Kim James: Absolutely, and I think that’s where I say to people, it took 2 years. Like, I had… I had moments 100% within that, that I felt better. Also, within that, it’s like, I came back from burnout, and then I went for a huge role, I went for my dream role, I got made redundant, I went for the next role, like, so many big things happen through that, but it was also making sure that I avoided habitual burnout, as you’re saying, of, like, I wasn’t falling back into it. And that was the biggest thing, because I think for so many of us, we think a two-week stint, or a long weekend, or a good night’s sleep is going to cure everything, but we don’t build the tools in our till world, and I… had seen a psychologist, two years prior for really bad imposter syndrome when I become a manager, so I just… I contacted them, and very thankful that I was able to get in, and I said to her, I clearly have a terrible work ethic, a certain relationship to work, I had a good work ethic, bad relationship to work, and I was like, I’m in my 20s, like, I have to get my shit sorted, I can’t do this for another 40 years, and she helped me. She helped me go, okay, well, what are the boundaries? We identified that there was projects at work that I was trying to fix, and I wasn’t in the position or had the resources to fix them. So I was worried about things I couldn’t control.
I didn’t have a… I didn’t have enough of me outside of work. My identity was tied to the quality of my work and being the best, and things like that. So, once we improved, the way that I responded to work, and also, how I kind of, like, went about that, but then also the habits outside of work that allowed me to switch off, that’s where then now, like, I, right now, it’s coming up to Christmas, I run a co-founding a tech com… like, tech startup. I’m having to move house. I am literally exhausted, like, absolutely exhausted, but I’m not burnt out. And I say that to people, I’m not burnt out because I’m still getting up in the morning and doing my morning routine. I’m in the gym six days a week. I’m eating good food, I’m seeing friends. If I was burnt out, I would be on the couch, paralyzed not being able to move forward. I was like, this is not burnout, this is exhaustion. And that’s fine, because it’s seasons, you don’t avoid hard times, you don’t avoid stress, you just work out how to manage it better. I think there’s that saying that’s kind of like, you can’t avoid the rain, it’s more like how you dance in it, or something like that.
Dr Hayley D Quinn: I think that’s so important to talk about that with seasons as well, because I think a lot of people fear that if… you know, I work with a lot of high-achieving people who can have this fear that, but if I’m gonna put these things in place, it’s gonna mean that I’m not achieving like I was. And it’s just not true. Like, this isn’t about… we want you to live a life where you’re not doing anything. It really is about how do you set up your life in a way that allows you to do all the things you want to do in your work, in your personal life. I do a lot of that in the work that I do with people, and I talk a lot about the things you’re talking about in the book as well. So, I think that’s a really important one, is knowing that this is about creating the life you want, which can be full. And it can be busy.
Kim James: But it can’t be busy all of the time.
Dr Hayley D Quinn: There’s got to be moments where we are resting and replenishing. It’s like, I’ll say to people, you know, if you go into a factory, the machines do not run 24 hours a day, 7 days a week, 365 days of a year. They stop for maintenance, and then they start again, and we have to do the same.
Kim James: As well.
Dr Hayley D Quinn: Was there anything during the lead up to burnout, whilst you were in burnout, or on reflection after your recovery, that really surprised or shocked you about what you’d been through, or what you were going through?
Kim James: I think a lot of it was that I thought that working harder was… was a sign to ambition, and I was like, you just have to work the hardest. I think this was time of the girlboss era, it was the hustle era, and it was that everyone that I saw online, this was the norm, this is what it’s supposed to be. But then, I also had been listening to someone that I thought was the absolute pinnacle, and that I thought was doing the most talk on a podcast, and she talked about how impacted her health was, and how bad of a state her health was, and I was like, oh…
And I think that that’s where I probably would… when I was so much in my head, and I didn’t realize the impact that I was having on others. Was when I burnt out, and I’d come back, and someone had said to me that they had said to the manager, is Kim the expectation of what… how much we all need to work. And that really upset me, because I was like, oh my god, everyone thinks that I’m the standard that everyone needs to work to, but they don’t know that I’m broken on the inside. So that’s where I think I realized that I had to be able to fix that, so that I wasn’t pushing out that culture.
And then also identifying, I think I like the conversations now that we’re in a world where I think we can kind of swing some ways, and now the conversation of burnout, people are scared, and we’re like, oh, should we be working this hard? Is hustle bad? If you want an extraordinary life, or you want extraordinary outcomes, it takes an extraordinarily amount of effort. And it’s like, we don’t then go and tell Olympians, you shouldn’t train that hard, and you shouldn’t work that hard, but then if it’s a woman that’s running a business, oh, you shouldn’t work that hard. It’s like, anything that’s extraordinary takes extraordinarily amount of output. And I then had to then realize, okay, well, what is that sustainably for me, and how can we have that conversation? Because I really didn’t want to be breeding something that other people thought this was the norm when I’m absolutely broken inside.
Dr Hayley D Quinn: Yeah, gosh, I imagine that would have been confronting for you.
Kim James: Hmm.
Dr Hayley D Quinn: And also, I love that, again, pointing out that this isn’t about dimming your light, this isn’t about settling for a quiet life, unless that’s what you want, and then good on you. This is about what do you need to be resourced to be able to do the extraordinary things, you know? I’ve found myself recently in lots of different rooms with remarkable women, people… And… We want people out there doing remarkable things, but we have to be well-resourced to do it. Otherwise, the price that you’ll pay is just so, so high, isn’t it?
Kim James: Yes, yes.
Dr Hayley D Quinn: So you had talked before about, you know, it took you a good two years, and you’d seen the psychologist and worked through some things. Can you tell me some of the things that, either you did then, or you’re still doing now, that helped you recover and help you stay out of burnout?
Kim James: Yeah, I think one of the biggest things is that we then think, I just need to take a holiday, or oh, I just need to get this thing. And you might take a holiday or a break once or twice a year. It’s the daily things every single day that become non-negotiables, and I am also neurodivergent, so, like, for me, I had to then really understand what that looks like. Obviously, working for myself, I can set a lot more of those, because I’m in control of my calendar. The negative side of that is I could work 7 days, and I know that that’s not okay. So, I, very, very much so have a very strong routine towards fitness and mental health.
For that, it’s something that my co-founder and I are very honest about. So I have my knee things. I like to box, and I love boxing. I think everyone should have a skill and, like, a hobby that is growing a skill. It’s not something that you just do because you have to. The ability to have something where you have to get better at it, but it’s not work-related. So that is, like, my absolute me time. I make sure that every morning I don’t wake up and touch my phone. I’m very much a no-phone-in-the-mornings person, like, start your day with you, of your mindset.
And then I love to also walk on my treadmill early in the morning. I get, like, 20 minutes in, and I read a fiction book. The reason I read fiction is because my job is trying to be more creative, so I just found that that was really good as well. So I do those ones, and then I have a very clear routine with myself, that if I am also starting to get to those points where I’m like, this is not sustainable, okay, I shouldn’t work this weekend, or okay, I need to have a weekend in, or go, no, no, I actually need to be around my people, and kind of, like, filling up my cups like that.
So it’s definitely the small little, like, daily habits that are the biggest things, but it’s so funny, because I think that we just, like, right now, are striving for, like, the 1% in health. We’re striving for the ice sparks, we’re striving for the journaling, we’re striving for all these other things that are nice to have, and it’s like, get enough sleep, get off your phone, eat well, and move. And that’s pretty much the majority of what it is. Like, I have a very strict bedtime routine. I literally use a platform called Brick, so I, like, block my phone. And I make sure that I get out and, like, exercise with others, and I’m a huge meal prep on a Sunday. I’m like, during the week, I literally am so boring and will eat the same thing every day for lunch and for dinners, because I’m like, as long as it’s been done, I’m ready to go. But, yeah, I think for me, when you kind of, like, prepare and put in those little things each day, you just realize when you don’t have those, as well, that that’s just kind of, like, helped keep me in track that I can work 7 days sometimes when I need to, and I don’t feel like I’m burning out, because I know that on a Saturday, I’m only allowed to work till 3.30, because I have to get to yoga for 4.
Dr Hayley D Quinn: Yeah, I love that, and you speak to something that I do a lot of work with people, is that really understanding yourself, and I’m also a neurodivergent woman, and attract a lot of neurodivergent clients, and I think it’s important that we understand ourselves, because a lot of the advice out there is not necessarily designed for neurodivergent people, and if we try and fit into somebody else’s prescription of how it should be, whether that’s neurotypical advice or neurodivergent advice. If we’re trying to fit into somebody else’s prescription of how this needs to be, we’re setting ourselves up with more challenges and potentially not, you know, not going to be helpful, it could actually be harmful. So I love that you’ve got to really know yourself, and you know what you like, and you’ve got the things in that are your non-negotiables, which I think are really important.
And having those things where… you have the food prepping, so during the week, you’ve straight away reduced cognitive load. So that can be… that time and energy can be put into, you know, you start… I can only imagine what goes on for somebody who’s doing a tech startup. I mean, that almost makes my brain explode. I think… I can only imagine the sort of stuff that’s going on for you. But I love that you’ve got these other things in place that take away…
Kim James: Yes.
Dr Hayley D Quinn: …things that would drain your time and energy, because we can’t… we can’t do it all at the same time. We can do lots of things.
Kim James: But they can’t be all at the same time, so if we can find ways to reduce cognitive load.
Dr Hayley D Quinn: Delegate to somebody else, get rid of things we don’t need to be doing, and adding in those things, like you said, time with your people, making sure that we’re connected socially on whatever level that means for us.
Kim James: Is so, so important.
Dr Hayley D Quinn: For that everyday well-being. Like, I start my day with literally checking in with myself, hey, darling, how did you sleep last night? How are you feeling? What have you got on? And what do you need to be resourced for that?
Kim James: Yeah, absolutely. I also… most days I try to as well, but one of my favorite things is I just have, like, a 5-minute gratitude meditation that I have on an app on my iPad. I’ve used the same one for, like, six years. I’ve never done anything other than this one. And it’s just, like, three things you’re looking forward to today. And sometimes it’s so easy that you wake up, and you’re like, it’s cold, the weather’s bad, oh, I’ve got this thing, oh, just… what are the things that you’re really grateful for and looking forward to? And I think that that’s where sometimes I get a lot of people say, oh, you’re always so happy, and you’re so, like, joyful, and I’m like, I have seen the version of just, like, absolute rock bottom, that I’m so happy that I’m not there every day. And it’s just like, when you’ve reached that level where you just are so broken as a human being, you are so happy for it. And I also say to myself, right now, and I think also a big part of burnout is it also comes from complete misalignment in your life.
I am not burnt out right now, because I am exhausted pursuing something that I’m passionate about. Like, I do a lot of keynote speaking, and a few weeks ago, I did two in one day, which is just not good, but obviously it got to the Thursday, and I was so exhausted. And I said to one of my friends, like, I’m exhausted, but I am exhausted because I’m doing what I’m passionate about. And I’m like, that is a privilege, and I’m very happy to do those things as well. So, I think so much of it we can just identify and be so grateful for what we have, and sometimes we underestimate how much of an impact that just changing… and I know that can sound like a bit woo-woo, having a positive mindset. But for me, I’m just like, how cool of the life that I have, because I know that this is what younger me wanted as well.
Dr Hayley D Quinn: Absolutely, and I don’t think it’s woo-woo at all, and there’s plenty of science that’ll back this up, but it’s far better for your health. Like, we have an inbuilt negativity bias.
Kim James: Yes.
Dr Hayley D Quinn: And we need to practice looking for the good things, and gratitude practice is one of those things that helps retrain our mind to seeing those things in our life that…
Kim James: Yes.
Dr Hayley D Quinn: …are more positive. And I think you made a really important point, and again, I speak about this in the book, about neurodivergent people, when we are, you know, our special interests can be part of our well-being.
Kim James: Yes.
Dr Hayley D Quinn: You know, getting hyper-focused on something you’re really passionate about can actually serve you well. Rather than burn you out. It’s like, I think the misalignment piece is so important, because when we are doing things that either we don’t have a lot of autonomy around, or we’re feeling resentful about, or we’re not enjoying. That’s a risk factor for burnout. Yes. Whereas if we are… super focused on the stuff we’re passionate about. Again, we still need to be resourced, because if you ended up doing, like, a, you know, 14-hour day for 2 weeks, you’re not eating properly, you’re not hydrating, you’re not speaking to anybody. Well, of course you’re heading down that road towards burnout again, but having those passion projects are so important for well-being.
Kim James: Oh, that’s a thing.
Yeah, well, it’s sustainable ambition. I think there’s two things with it. It’s like, I would rather it take longer if I get to enjoy it, and don’t burn myself in the process. Like, I’ve always had that, especially now building something of my own, and building a company with someone else, or I also speak it and I post a lot online. I’m not posting right now, because I have so much going on, I’m like, something has to give, and I don’t want to put out anything to the world that it’s just, like, I’m not in a place that I can. I’m like, I have so much going on, that’s not going to be helpful for someone else. So I would rather it take longer if I enjoy it, because, like, I think a really key thing as well was that I was constantly proving myself and proving my worth through my work and things like that. You just get stuck on the hedonic treadmill, and you just realize that there will always be the next thing, and it’s like, okay, well, you booked this conference. Well, what if it’s the next conference? Or you got 50,000 followers. Well, what about if it’s 100,000 followers? Or you make the six figures, but what about if it’s 7 figures?
And, like, you’re never gonna get happy from doing all the things. You’ll have that initial thing, you have the initial spark where you’ll get excited by it, but then life moves on, and it’s more of who you become in the pursuit of that as well. So that’s where I think it’s really important to have those with yourself for work, but so much is having it, especially if you’re neurodivergent, something that’s growing a skill. Like, something that is just… you’re learning it, and the ability to get to learn, like, we just really lose that the older that we get as adults. When we think of when we were younger, and after school, we’d have, you’d be playing musical instruments, you’d be doing sporting, you’d be doing so many things, and we just, like, let ourselves not do that. So that’s why I box. I love to box. I love going and being like, I’m getting stronger, or I’m learning something new, I’m getting faster, like, that is my learning thing.
And then I got very much into fictional reading this year. I actually realized that I really needed to, kind of, like, detox my consumption, and I was consuming too much self-help, but you’re just like, oh my god, I can’t keep helping myself. And a friend of mine who’s very creative said, how much fiction do you read? And I was like, I don’t read any fiction. She’s like, that… you need to be reading fiction. And I will read fiction, but my subconscious is then, like, going like this, in a circle. And then I’ll, like, go for a walk one day, and the best idea will come out of nowhere. And it’s because my brain was allowed to, so I also have a Kobo, so it tells you how many books you’ve read, and how fast, and so that’s, like, my little gamified part. You’re not high-achieving at all. Exactly. I love it.
Dr Hayley D Quinn: Everywhere, right? That’s fantastic.
Looking back, what would you say has been your biggest lesson?
Kim James: I think the biggest lesson has definitely been that probably what I’ve just said, like, you have time, like, you don’t… you can have it all, but you just can’t have it all at once. I, right now, was actually trying to do something really, really big in my life, like a big life goal at the exact same time as what we’re doing with this company, and I just… realized I couldn’t do it all at once, and I just said to the people around me, why was I trying to do some of life’s biggest things at the same time? Like, then what? You know, I think of people like Billie Eilish and how she reached, like, 18 or 19, and she had achieved what people spend their whole life striving for, and sometimes never achieve. And so she had that, like, now what? So I think that I’m very aware with that with myself, and just, I… yeah, the biggest thing that I’ve learned is that sometimes when you heal, you actually feel like you become less ambitious, but it’s just because you have to realign for yourself what ambition means to you. Like, for so many of us, if we’re proving ourselves and proving our worth, we’re doing for the external validation of others. But when you’re doing it to internally validate you, you think that you’re not as ambitious, but you actually are still. And so, for me, I am just allowing myself to let it take longer, so that I enjoy the path, and I don’t get burnt out, and I can actually remember it, because I’m just like, there’s so many things in my life that I’ve done that I probably don’t even remember that I’ve achieved them, because I was just constantly going for the next thing. So, that’s definitely a huge part of it.
Dr Hayley D Quinn: I love that, and gosh, you’re so right. I mean, it shifts your perspective. Like anything major in your life, it changes your perspective, and I think, you know, for me, it was certainly about defining what does success mean, and it was that, what does it mean for me, because I would externalize a lot of, well, I need to do these things to prove I’m good enough. I didn’t feel good enough. And I think about, since my burnout, and the things I have done and achieved in my life are far greater.
Kim James: Than, a lot of the things I did previously.
Dr Hayley D Quinn: But they’ve been done at a pace that has felt so good, and so sustainable, and been joyful, and I’ve really, you know, I’ve really enjoyed the process of them all. So, I love that you said that.
If you had just one thing to say to the people listening, what would that one thing be?
Kim James: The people online that look like they have it all figured out, and the perfect routine, the perfect life, they absolutely don’t. Like, I… that was me in the workplace, where I looked like I was the perfect person with the perfect level of output, and I was broken on the inside. I have listened to, you know, podcasts recently of people that I look up to them, and I think, oh my god, I’m not doing enough compared to them, and they’re like, my health was absolutely broken on the inside. The people that have the 5am routine and the journaling and everything like that, it’s not sustainable, and I think that we just are so much in, especially comparing ourselves to others and their timeline, and we burn ourselves out. Either burn ourselves that we try to do too much to match to those people, or we go out of misalignment of what’s best for us, or we don’t enjoy the process of it. So that’s, I think, the biggest thing.
And I think for me, it’s funny, because then I have people that say to me, like, oh my god, but you move so fast, you’re doing so much, and I probably am doing a lot right now that, like, people say, but it’s just a lot, because it’s in alignment. So I really enjoy it, but for… if you told me this, like, four years ago, I would have been like, oh my god, like, nothing’s working, it’s taking too long. So I think that’s a really key part of it, is there’s definitely the part of burnout, and what we talked about, our relationship to work, but burning ourselves out to meet someone else’s expectations. You don’t know how much do they… are they completely, you know, are they not seeing their friends and family? Are they working 14-hour days and not doing the things for them? Are they got chronic insomnia? And all that kind of stuff. So, really, it’s just like, who are you compared to the previous version? I think now that we’re, you know, closing another second year, and this is my second year of working for myself, and I’m like, are we where we want to be in the tech business yet? Absolutely not. We have so much more to go, and every week, I think that we’re like, this is the thing! It’s not the thing! It’s the biggest rollercoaster you’ve ever been on, but there’s just… when I can sit back and think of how different I am as a person now compared to last year, it’s just phenomenal, and I only got there by just kind of, like, having these habits, sticking to it every day, doing the unsexy stuff with getting enough sleep, you know, like, checking in with yourself, eating right, and just exercising. And then, yeah, identifying is, am I also burnt out from misalignment of spending my time doing the things that are not fulfilling me, especially if someone neurodivergent.
Dr Hayley D Quinn: Yeah, absolutely. And I think the other piece as well is when we’re looking at people online, you don’t know what help and sport they’ve got in the background.
Kim James: Oh, absolutely.
Dr Hayley D Quinn: Taking care of their kids, running their household, doing all the stuff, so we’ve got to be very careful. We’re… but we’re social creatures, and we… We naturally compare ourselves to others, but there will always be people who are doing better than you, there will always be people who are not doing as well as you. There’ll be people doing more, people doing less. That’s just the nature of the world we live in. So, it really is coming back to self, isn’t it? And thinking, what do I want? What do I need? What’s gonna help me and serve me? And that alignment piece. I love that. I work a lot with people around, you know, creating values-aligned businesses, because those are the businesses we can make sustainable and enjoyable, because who wants to work really, really hard and not be enjoying what they’re doing? Or, not having the health and wellbeing to enjoy the fruits of your labour.
Kim James: Oh, absolutely. And I say that a lot to people, yeah, I did a video earlier this year, and I said, like, you don’t have as many hours in a day as Beyonce, because that’s an absolute lie. Beyonce has a chef, Beyonce has a nanny, Beyonce probably has someone that cleans her house, and we, you know, it was an article, and it was talking about how much more single women pay, because if you go on holidays, you then have to pay more, because you have a room that still has two beds in it, or that you’re paying for one internet bill, but it’s, you know, for one house, but there’s one of you in it. And I was like, it’s also the tax on time. I was like, the amount of time for it, but then having said that, like, I’ve got friends that run businesses and they have kids, and I’m very much like, I can work 7 days a week, I don’t have children. Like, I can be 100% selfish into that. So, yeah, you’re exactly right of just alignment of what’s realistic for you, because you don’t know what opportunity someone else has. It’s especially, like, someone tried to give me business advice, the man, and it was a man, and he was like, you just need to hustle at this time, you need to work 7 days a week, you have to grind. And I said to him, so, while you were doing this, were you married? He’s like, yes. And I was like, so she put food on your table, she cleaned your clothes, she looked after your children. I said, no, no, you got to work 7 days a week, because there was a woman doing that for you. So that’s a privilege. And I was like, that’s not a privilege that I have. I have to spend my Sundays cleaning my house, preparing for the week, and washing my clothing, and stuff like that. And he was like, oh.
Dr Hayley D Quinn: But it’s a good point. We need to… we need to live the life that is our life.
Kim James: Yep.
Dr Hayley D Quinn: Not try and live the life that is somebody else’s, because we don’t see everything else that is going on.
I’ve got one more question for you, I ask this to all my guests, and it’s my favourite question. If you could meet your 80-year-old self today, what do you think she would say to you?
Kim James: Ugh, she would probably tell me to stop overthinking.
Honestly, I’m a massive over-thinker, like, I think that there’s definitely where… it’s something that I do now, if I think of my younger self now, but I think that that future version of me would be just, like, please enjoy it, because these are the times that you’re going to look back on and be like, these were the glory years. These are the glory years of the hustle and the grind of building something that doesn’t exist, because I… I really love thinking of that, and I really love thinking of a future version of me, because it’s, you know, like, how when they say to Richard Branson, a 20-year-old said to him, you know, like, if you had, you know, X amount of money, and he was like, I’d rather be your age than have money, because you can’t buy time. So, I definitely think she would say, stop overthinking it, and just enjoy the journey. I know that I said that I do to others, but, you know, I’m definitely someone that’s like, oh, time’s on my side, not on my side, let’s keep rushing faster, but realistically, probably not.
Dr Hayley D Quinn: And, you know, that saying of, if we’ve got a lot to do, we need to go slowly.
Kim James: Yeah.
Dr Hayley D Quinn: We often get where we need to get quicker when we go slower, you know, and we calm our nervous system, and… But I love that, and maybe you can keep connecting with your anti-year-old self to remind yourself that you don’t need to overthink everything, and you don’t need to rush, because this is the process. I was at a conference recently. And somebody had said, you know, we’ll often say, oh, looking back on the good old days, and we need to remember that these are the good old days, right? It’s like you said, these are the glory years. We’re living them right now, and these are the memories we’re going to be looking back on, so let’s make them beautiful.
Kim James: Yeah, I think I’m kind… I definitely… even say that now as well, you know, and I say that to my co-founder, I’m like, these are the times where, you know, we’re going to be thinking, oh, it was so difficult back then, we were building this thing that doesn’t exist, and right now, you just feel like you just have breakdowns and breakthroughs. Like, I just joke, every time we have a massive breakdown, we have a massive breakthrough. But then when you’re older, you just miss those times and just miss the challenge of it. I think that the ability to challenge and create something that doesn’t exist.
Dr Hayley D Quinn: Oh, Kim, thank you so much for coming on, and I’m so excited for everything that you’re creating, and I love that you’re doing it in a way that is honoring you and your wellbeing, and I’m so grateful for you sharing your story. I have no doubt that it’s going to be really helpful for people.
Kim James: Thank you so much, thank you for having me.
Dr Hayley D Quinn: And thanks for tuning in. Another great episode, another great guest, and I’ll be back next week, and don’t forget, pre-orders are now open for the book, and you’ll find the link in the show notes, and I’ll put all links for Kim in the show notes as well, so you can go and follow her and find out more about Kim. See you next week.