Links to Dr Hayley D Quinn Resources
Reclaim Your Time and Energy: 6 Key Boundaries for Women Business Owners
Download here, completely FREE! https://drhayleydquinn.com/resources/
Book now available: https://drhayleydquinn.com/product/book/
Link to podcast mailing list: https://drhayleydquinn.com/podcast/
Group Coaching Waitlist: https://drhayleydquinn.myflodesk.com/timetothrivewaitlist
Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/drhayleydquinn
LinkedIn: https://www.linkedIn.com/in/dr-hayley-d-quinn-43386533
Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/drhayleydquinn
Links to Cherie Clonan’s Resources
Website: https://www.thedigitalpicnic.com.au/
IG: @thedigitalpicnic
LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/company/7598439/admin/dashboard/
Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/TheDigitalPicnic
This transcript is computer generated and may contain errors and not be an exact representation of the audio
Hi this is Welcome to Self® and I’m your host, Dr Hayley D Quinn, the anti-burnout business coach. I’m a speaker, author, former clinical psychologist and a late identified auDHDer.
Welcome to Self ® is a podcast for business owners like you who want success but not at the cost of your well-being. This is about transforming self and transforming business. I’ll be here to remind you that you’re human first and as well as being a business owner, you have different roles in your life that need your attention and to manage those well, you need to take care of yourself in the best way possible.
Here you’ll learn about practices that’ll help you navigate not just your business but your non-work life as well and you’ll realise that you’re not alone in the ways you struggle. You’ll have your curiosity piqued on various topics as I chat with wonderful guests and bring you solo bite-sized episodes.
I’m here for service-based business owners and entrepreneurs like you, to help you increase your self-care and compassion, change your relationship with yourself and your business, and elevate your business to a new level so you can live the full and meaningful life you desire.
This is a place of nourishment, growth and helpful information. A place where you can learn ways to assist you and your business to thrive.
We’ll talk all things mindset, strategy and well-being and I’m so excited you’re here. If you haven’t already, go and hit subscribe so you don’t miss an episode.
So, let’s get started
Hi, and welcome to another episode. We’re almost at the end of this season. We’ve literally got one episode left after this one. I don’t know where the time went, but today I’m chatting to my final guest of Season 8, and I’m so excited to have her here today. She is one of the most gorgeous, compassionate humans I’ve had the pleasure of meeting and she’s also a talented founder. But I’m going to stop fangirling and get to introducing you to cherie clonan.
Cherie is the heart and brains behind the digital picnic, a trailblazing, digital marketing agency that’s become synonymous with cutting edge strategy and authentic connection. An autistic pdas CEO, who proudly embraces her neurodivergence. Cherie has built a business that champions inclusivity from the ground up, making the digital picnic a place where neurodivergent talent isn’t just accommodated but celebrated proudly, loudly. It’s my absolute pleasure to welcome cherie to the podcast thank you so much for being here with me today. I’m so excited.
Cherie: Thank you. Yeah. I’m so happy to be here, and it was so sweet to hear those things. So thank you so much.
Dr. Hayley: It’s been an absolute pleasure. I remember coming down to your conference and meeting you in real life for the 1st time at your Comeback Conference in Melbourne, and it’s just been such a pleasure to connect and have chats and be involved in some of the offerings that you have, that we’ll talk about in a little bit. But can you start with telling us a little bit about yourself? And I’m curious as to why you started the digital picnic, and maybe not just from the because this is the service I wanted to offer people, but also why for you? Did you want a business.
Cherie: Yeah, okay, I think the business ownership has to be the typical neurodivergent, pipeline thing of, you know. Just why do we all land on business ownership. I have a lot of thoughts around that. But for me it was just, I think childhood ish type stuff where definitely grew up just so far below the poverty line and always knew. And I think if anyone’s listening and has something like a similar childhood, you quickly realize that education is power. And so that’s what I grew up just so acutely aware of. And so I tried hard. You know, I really tried hard because I just thought that’s my chance, you know, and I want to take it. You get one life, you know. And so I went all in on education. And so I just. I’m a lifelong learner, you know, and so fast track to adulthood. And I’m sitting in relevant tertiary qualifications for the industry that I’m in. But I was really uninspired by how genuinely outdated the curriculum was, and I would, without knowing why. Now I understand autistic Pda, I would challenge the lecturers. Hey, this this is outdated. What’s why, you know. And I was just that nuisance kind of student, I guess, and so I just made a promise to myself that one day I will launch something that is a fresher.
Take on digital marketing everything, you know, because that was my passion within the marketing stream, you know, overall. And so yeah, now I’m here. I wanted to make sure that I had enough. You know, experience credentials and so on. So I got the industry experience, and the minute I realized I was ready to leap into business ownership I did. I’ve never looked back, and I still to this day. If I were to win the lottery, it would just be one bachelor degree after another, like, I just genuinely love learning genuinely love to teach genuinely love. My students like. It’s just the best part of my job. It undoes all of the crappiest stuff about business ownership for me. If I was permanently around students I would be quite literally the happiest founder, you know. So I feel really lucky, like I’m working my dream job. It’s attached to my autistic spins. Everything that I do really is an autistic spin, you know. So you stay pretty well when you’re doing stuff that’s quite literally like a special interest for your autistic brain. Yeah, I’m 1 of the lucky Ndas, I guess, for sure.
Dr. Hayley: Yeah, yeah. Gosh, so so many kind of motivations for you of, I guess that sort of autonomy. And being in charge of of your life and your destiny, of how you wanted it to be, and that learning has played such a big part in that, but also wanting to offer something that you could see was not being offered to people. And I have to say, having been a student of yours of yours in the digital picnic, your love of your students comes through so strongly. I mean, it really does. But you also mentioned just before, you know, if you didn’t have that some of the crappy parts of being a business owner, and I’m sure everybody listening, and certainly myself as well. We can all relate to that. It’s not all you know rainbows and unicorn poop, is it.
Cherie: Not at all.
Dr. Hayley: Challenging parts to it. So what do you think for you have been some of the challenges? A in general, and B as a neurodivergent business owner, and maybe actually, they can’t be separated. But be nice.
Cherie: Yeah, I think for me, this will surprise people, probably when they hear it. But so obviously I was formally diagnosed as autistic and then got invited to explore what a Pda profile might look like, and if that resonated, there’s nothing within the Dsm. Yet at time of recording to my understanding that can formally diagnose someone with a Pda profile. But you know, you look at those.
Dr. Hayley: Just for those that don’t know. The Pda stands for pathological demand avoidance. But a lot of people who are neurodivergent don’t like that term, and we’ll often reframe that as something like persistent desire for autonomy.
Cherie: Yes, absolutely. I’m both. I take both, you know. My husband knows if he asks any question I say no before I’ve even heard the rest of the question, like I am so pathologically demand avoidant that I don’t even hear the sentence, and I’m like, no, no, you know, it’s just yet. But then I’ve also got this persistent drive for autonomy. So yeah, so we sort of explored that what a Pda profile, you know, looks like. And if I resonated. And I was like, absolutely like this. Just is the final piece for me. Everything made sense like just being autistic, was like a welcome home. But it wasn’t quite my home, you know. There was just something missing. And so, you know, understanding Pda for the 1st time, was like, Oh, wow! Okay, this makes sense of everything. But when I was working with the woman who, you know, presented, you know that to me, she said, does this change a lot for you and I I did say, Hayley, you know, at the time I was like, it means that people management has an expiry date for me.
Because I’ve got a special interest in people like a lot of Pda, especially autistic women. We’ve got this huge special interest in people. And you know, just human behavior in general. But yeah, I just I did recognize. Oh, damn it, I’m going to have an expiry date with people management. And so that’s what changed for me like that. You know. It is the thing I love the most about my role, but it’s also simultaneously the most exhausting, you know part of my role because I care so much, probably a little too much, you know. And yeah, those high care leaders can. We’ve got a high burnout rate, you know. So now I’ve just put protections in place. We for the 1st time had to have ahead of people and culture, and it just means that I’m not doing the everyday stuff that can burn out an autistic Pda like the I don’t know. Look to be really honest, it would just be the complaining for complaints sake, you know.
I just it doesn’t sort of light me up. I want to be involved in the bigger picture. Big picture, visionary people related stuff, and I think I would get too distracted hearing, you know, just in the whole scheme of things, pretty small complaints. So that negs me out big time, but I’ve put some good, you know things in place to make sure that it doesn’t completely neg me out. Anything outside of that. You know just anything that just becomes a little too repetitive after time. I just I do get pretty bored. It’s an interest led brain for me. So if it’s too repetitive, I’m out, you know. So yeah, just, you know, lots of things like that. But every business owner has the things that they don’t get lit up about. I think it’s just especially important for neurodivergent founders to recognize that because for me, burnout has never been attached to hours worked, and it has always been attached to just some of the things that I’ve mentioned.
Dr. Hayley: Yeah, yeah, look, I love that answer. I work a lot with people around really understanding yourself whether you’re neurodivergent or not. But like many neurodivergent business owners. I tend to attract neurodivergent clients. But really getting to know yourself. So you can make those sort of decisions like you getting somebody in in that people and culture role. So that you’re not dealing with things that actually are going to have a negative impact on your well-being. It’s really about understanding yourself, isn’t it so that you can design your business in a way that suits who you are as a founder, as as an employer, as a person.
Cherie: Yep.
Dr. Hayley: And I just love how much awareness you’ve got. But you made me smile because I work so much with people around. So so many people say yes immediately, without thinking about themselves. It’s always, you know, the person wants something for me from me. It’s a yes, and I work a lot with people around kind of changing that, so they can say no to others, so they can say yes to themselves, and it was like fresh air for me to hear you say I’m immediate. No.
Cherie: Yeah. And then you can’t.
Dr. Hayley: Think about it, and you might then become a yes.
Cherie: I say no to things that if I just finished like, if I listen to the rest of the sentence, I would actually probably be. Yes, but these Pdas were like, you don’t get to ask me. I decide I’ve got full autonomy. I laugh at my own self. That’s the best thing about Pda is, I’ve never met an unfunny Pda like I know I’m biased, but I think we’re so bloody. Funny laugh, you know, because Pda is just well, when you just especially don’t have that deep level of self-awareness. It’s genuinely traumatic. Honestly, you cannot understand why your nervous system is just so different. But when that self-awareness kicks in, there’s a lot that I’ve just learned to laugh at, I’m like, Oh, Lord! You know, it’s just it’s funny. It’s really.
Dr. Hayley: Yeah, I think I think it can be such a gift to yourself, can’t it, when you can understand? And even before, when you said you’d had the identification as being autistic. But you still knew. Yes, that fits. But there’s still bits missing. Yeah, I think that’s really key. And it’s not sort of like. We can find out one thing, and then it’s like, Okay, well, everything’s going to feel right now. It’s. Getting to know yourself on a deep level. So I love that. Yeah. So can you tell us a little bit about for those that don’t know you or your business. What does the digital picnic offer? And how is it different to perhaps going and doing some learning somewhere else? Because a lot of us are not marketers. We come in from different angles in business, and it can feel very overwhelming. I know it certainly did for me. Until I connected with the digital picnic. Tell us a little bit about what you offer and why it is different.
Cherie: Yeah, sure. So we are 11 years old this year, and for the entirety of those 11 years we’ve always taught. When I say we, lol. It’s been me for a large chunk of that, and that’s because I love teaching. It’ll never stop. So yay, lucky me have always taught, and then the more you teach, the more people realise. I love what you’re putting down. Could you also manage for me? And so, probably halfway into the business journey, we introduced management services as well. And so we manage everything in terms of marketing for folks from organic content through to paid advertising. So that’s the management services realm. I really love what we do there. It’s very anti cowboy. I know there’s a lot of anti-agency retirement floating around on the Internet. And honestly, I agree with a lot of them, you know, but I also said all well knowing that whatever’s being discussed just isn’t us, you know. So we sit pretty comfortably. We say more no than yes, I don’t know if that’s the Pda spirit, but we just aren’t here to screw people over. So if someone inquires about our services, and we, you know, look at everything and think, Oh, you’re not. Yeah.
You need. Xyz will go straight back to them with that really honest answer. So that’s management services. But, like I said, for the entirety of the 11 years. And I imagine, hopefully, for many, many years more, we’re teaching. And so I think the best digital marketers teach and the best digital marketing teachers do. So that’s how we’re different. We’re just constantly like fingers in both pies, you know, teaching as much as we manage and managing as much as we teach, you know. So yeah, that I love. And then the second thing is, when it comes to designing curriculum. I obviously being an autistic woman, I just apply a really different lens to how I teach things. And it benefits all neurotypes. I really feel like it’s a super inclusive classroom. I’m really proud of that. I love the way my brain thinks. I love the way that I can take, sometimes challenging concepts and just say, Okay, it’s just XY, and Z. And I don’t know how or why, but it is received so well, and it makes me feel really proud, you know, that folks just seem to understand what I’m putting down the way that I’m putting it down, you know. So that’s our difference. Teach as much as we do, do as much as we teach.
There’s a lot of integrity. There’s a lot of anti cowboy, and I think if we were to say, if we were to specialize in anything within that paid Ads realm. We just have become super good at taking budgets from folks who’ve spent far too much on paid ads and doing a lot more with less. And that’s because they’re working with folks who pitch themselves as specialists in paid. And I think you know, anyone can be a specialist if you take a really significantly large paid ads budget and throw it out. Xyz, yeah, you’re going to get results, ish. But I think it takes someone truly specialist. And I call my team like kind geniuses, you know. It takes just something else. You have to go to a whole other place to be able to say. let’s halve that, and I still think we can double your results, and that’s sort of what we do. And maybe that sounds a little cowboy. But I. I just know we look at the case studies. That’s what we do.
Dr. Hayley: Wise in your in your teaching as well. You really do offer, from really kind of low cost, high value, low cost right through to sort of more expensive but still cost effective programs like your boot camp. I just recently attended your boot camp with my Va. Which was fantastic. And this is an area that normally I would get really quite overwhelmed with. But that was so much fun. The the learning, the the way you presented the information on video, the group you got together, the the group chat that we had it was it was really a fun experience. So encourage people to check out what you do. Offer, even if they’re not ready for somebody to take over. And you know, do that for them. I think the things that you teach are really helpful as well.
Cherie: I’m so glad I love the way we teach, like, it’s just it’s different, you know. So the program you just described. I think it’s different because we’re also just incredibly altruistic. So we know that I know as a neurodivergent woman the benefits of body doubling, for example, so to everyone that signed up to that boot camp. We were like bring a plus one no extra charge as long as the focus is one business, because we needed to make sure that everyone had a genuinely like customized experience, but just that piece alone that already offers body doubling for anyone who’s signing up. And then we did the extra body doubling sessions on Fridays because it just. I know the benefits of body doubling. It’s incredible, and it just encourages better results on completion rates for students, because, you know, they’re doing it alongside others. It’s just I love the way we do. I love the way we move through the world, and I’m not being as humble about it these days. I know that we’re doing it really differently, like we’ve got the low barrier sort of people can sign up to a lunch and learn for 50 bucks like, and just get so much good information from 1 h. So I just, I’m really proud.
Dr. Hayley: As you should be, what you what you offer, not just to students, but in your business as an employer, is very different. It is absolutely at the forefront of inclusive workplaces. And I’d love to chat a little bit more about that. But before we get to that, you talked before about kind geniuses. And you talked about this term at the conference, and I think it’s so beautiful. Can you just explain for the listeners what you mean by kind genius, because I know you said you can’t have one or the other. You need to have both.
Cherie: You do. I’ve really learned that. And look, maybe this doesn’t apply to every business. But for the digital picnic in our industry, I think I’m going to say it almost took me too long. And yet I think I landed there at just the right time. Also to recognize that I don’t know is the word secret sauce, or something like that. But I’ve hired. I’ve fired. I’ve been around for 11 years. I’ve definitely done both. and when I reflect on what works versus what doesn’t work at the digital picnic? I need kind genius. And so what that comes I can’t take credit. There’s it comes down to something that Patrick Lencioni pulled together, which is apparently an ideal team player, is a combination of hunger, humility, and smarts. And so the humility piece is that kind? And then the hunger and smarts is the genius. And so if I have kind without genius, I’ve got someone who’s probably going to get screwed over by this industry because you need smarts in our industry. You need specialist, you know, smarts. So I would never just hire based on. You know they’ve got the humility they’ve got, you know that, but not the other pieces that are super important. But then, on the flip side, if I only hire genius without smarts.
I’ve got those bulldozed corporate jerks that everyone doesn’t want in their workplace. They destroy culture. They smash your enps score in about 30 seconds. No one’s happy. They’re absolutely exhausting to manage. And we talked before about what burns me out. It is the bulldozer. I cannot have them in my workplace. They are just not good for my industry. They probably suit a couple of industries that I can think of that I won’t name, but you know just they’re not suited to the digital picnic. So then it helped me land on. Oh, my God! Tdp’s thing is kind of genius. I’m surrounded by. They’ve got the kind, but they’ve got the genius, and it all comes together and makes me feel like what a bunch of good eggs doing great work, you know it just feels I look forward to coming to work when I’m surrounded by kind genius. Yeah.
Dr. Hayley: That’s beautiful. And just for anyone listening. Can you just explain what you mean by enps? Score.
Cherie: Sure. Yep, okay. Enps is the employee net promoter score. So that’s 1 of the many great metrics you can sort of lean on to figure out, am I winning at culture like that? Enps is usually a pretty good giveaway. If it’s low, your folks aren’t happy, they’re unlikely to promote the experience of working within your workplace, even just if it’s of, you know, in and of themselves. And so I like that metric, and I pay close attention to it. We track that every fortnight at the digital picnic and look at what’s making it go up and down. It’s completely anonymous. We don’t know who’s contributed to the data. We don’t care. There’s no, I don’t need to know who. I just need to know what you know. And then we do good things with the data.
Dr. Hayley: Yeah. So so let’s talk about the workplace. Because, like, I say it, it’s like nothing that most people would see or hear about in terms of workplace, and yet most people would likely love So talk about some of the things that you do at the digital picnic to take care of your staff, and and to be neuro, inclusive.
Cherie: Yeah, okay, I always feel like it’s an absolute, bare minimum. That is the truth. Like, I just don’t know how. Even today, just as I’m talking to you today, I was tagged on Linkedin by someone who said you should get into leadership consulting, or, you know, business coaching. And I just thought. Oh, my lord, no, I am figuring it out with the rest of the people, you know, but I do think maybe the competitive advantage I have is. That autistic spin in people. So to begin with, like, without going into the specifics, I think if I could say what I get most right is just. I headed into a business with a desire to grow a team from a deep love of people. Even to be really honest, the shitty people. I still love shitty people because I’m fascinated by them, and I want to understand even the crappier parts of the human experience. Why are you like this, you know. How can I avoid the bulldozer in the future, or whatever it is, right? So I’m never not like, I’m not down and out on people, even if it’s a bit of a rough time with a person. And so I would recommend to anyone if your employee side work for the people who love the people, you know.
I think that’s probably the thing that I would get the most right. I just love people, but outside of that I I think I love my lived experience being an autistic woman, because I understand more like. Moreover, it’s I understand fluently the nervous system I really do not in. I couldn’t even compete with what you would know on everything related to that space. But just from a lived experience perspective. I’m fluent in nervous system, and I think it benefits all neurotypes. So I was really lucky. I grew up in a home with just the most amazing solo parent dad autistic Dad, who fluently understood nervous systems. He was so neuro affirming, I just had the safest childhood. You couldn’t even put it into words. I don’t even remember a time where I felt unsafe with him. He’s just the most psychologically safe person that I know. He’s completely calm, completely regulated.
And so I think because of that he raised a calm and regulated woman, you know, in return. And so I bring that just appreciation for all of what I’ve just described there to my workplace. And just, I’m here to honor nervous systems. I don’t want to smash someone’s nervous system. I am in an industry that does smash nervous systems by design. But I always tell my team look capitalism sucks. but a lot less. You know, it’s not going to be perfect, and not everyone you said to intro this little part of our conversation today, you said, you know, something around. People would like to work here. We’re not for everyone.
I’ve got some people who’d have worked with us and left who could write scathing reviews of their experience at the digital picnic for reasons I just can’t control, you know it would be around. I gave them feedback. They didn’t want to hear it. They didn’t lean in, or whatever it is, you know. But yeah, we’ve got a big focus on nervous systems, and so therefore, like psychological safety. And then, outside of that, we do what the media describe as pretty radical things to look after neurodivergent folk within our workplace. So we cover the full cost of autistic Adhd dyslexic dyscalcolic, just anything within that neurodivergent umbrella. We cover the full cost of that assessment. Yeah. we build work schedules around Circadian rhythms so that folks aren’t dialing in at 9 Am. Because capitalism told them they had to, you know, if you are better suited to a midday start, sleep in, and we’ll see you at midday and our industry. You can just kick on till 8 Pm. Or 7, 45, or whatever it is.
Dr. Hayley: Good. I’ve always said I would love to come and work for you. I don’t actually want to be employed. I think I’m probably unemployable to be honest, because I like working for myself so much, but that would sue me to the ground because I don’t like starting in the morning, and I changed my business. I work with what suits me, and I just think, gosh! I guess my comment at the start about everyone would love. That is. that workplaces in general brought in this understanding of what it means to be human and what it means to have a calm, regulated nervous system because we we can do more. We don’t. When we’re in our threat system, we just want to get safe. That’s all we’re interested in. That’s what we’re designed to do. So if we can keep these nervous systems regulated, whether that’s as a self-employed solo person, whether that’s as an employee or a founder, or whatever you’re doing, parent carer, whatever. You can get more done. Yeah, and it feels better. It just feels better.
Cherie: I agree. And again, for anyone who doesn’t know a lot about Pda, we are put on earth to reduce or eliminate demands. And I think what Australian workplaces get so wrong is all of the unnecessary demands like. I’m not talking about what people might think like reducing anything from a job description or exactly like that. But you know why. Why the 9 Am. Start in an industry that would seriously benefit from someone logging off at 7 30 instead that night, whatever. I remember one person one day I walked into the workplace, and she looked so destroyed I just took one look at her face, and I’m like what’s wrong, you know, but within a minute figured it out. She’d been saving for so long for a trip to Japan. Looked forward to it, you know, about 4 days away from maybe heading off. I can’t quite remember the timeline, and unfortunately, on that day someone rolled into the workplace and not their fault.
They didn’t know but they were covid positive. And so she was freaking out, thinking, I’m about to miss out on this holiday that I’ve saved so hard, for I’ve booked the annual leave, you know, and so on, and I just. I looked at her and I said, Go home, go home right now. Log off, you know, log on. If you’re feeling okay at home, whatever. We don’t need you here in person. And then the day that same day I built a policy, so that if you’re traveling within a week, just work from home that week so that you’re not thieved of your annual leave, you know. That’s that’s a classic Pda response, like, we’re just here to reduce unnecessary demands. And so I’m really proud to say that that’s how Pda is rolled through. We’re like, hang on. This seems like a really unnecessary demand. We really need to do this. So yeah, it’s just a collection of little things like that that seem to be big things when I share them on Linkedin, where I’m like. It’s not really that big, you know, but.
Dr. Hayley: Because most most places aren’t doing it, like most places, are like you will come in. You will work till the last minute. I don’t care if your flights like that evening you can work till 5 o’clock, and then you can race to the airport or whatever it might be, but it sounds like you also have. And I know this can be quite common in us. Autistic folk is that pattern recognition, and it’s almost like you. You’re skilled in spotting the patterns of things, and then coming up with a good solution.
Cherie: Yeah, I am. I am. I hate it sometimes. It’s a blessing and a curse to have that level of pattern recognition with people. It’s so tiring if you don’t look after yourself, because I’m just a million miles a minute on people, and I can figure things and people out really quickly. And I’m that annoying meme that gets circulated over the Internet a hundred times a week, or whatever where it’s like. I’ll meet someone new, and I’m like. They ain’t good people, you know, and my friends are like they’re amazing, like.
Dr. Hayley: No, they’re not.
Cherie: I’m like, that’s a that’s a not great person, you know, and 6 to 9 months later, like, so this person was awful. I’m like. you know, it’s just that blessing curse thing, you know. You feel arrogant or mean, or just. I don’t know. I just that’s where it feels like a curse, you know. But I love overall having pretty good pattern recognition with people. Yeah.
Dr. Hayley: Yeah, that’s fantastic. You talk about you know the importance of taking care of yourself, and you and I are going to chat again. So if people are loving hearing you this time, you’re going to be coming back in season 9 as well where we’re going to be talking more about how we take care of ourselves. What happens when we don’t? And I’ll be sharing a bit more in next week’s episode about what season 9 is really going to be focusing on and all about. And I’m really excited about that. But just just briefly, kind of what are some of the things for you that help you take care of yourself. I mean, you’ve obviously got a really good level of self-awareness, which I think is key. Yeah, we can’t change what we don’t see right. But what are some of the things that you do, perhaps on a daily basis, to take care of yourself.
Cherie: Hmm! I think. the best thing I’ve done has been to work with a leadership consultant to understand zones of just how we’re showing up. And so she presented something based on science called the Lifestyles inventory, and it’s like a circle, and it presents wheels. So you’re either in the blue zone, the Red Zone, or the green Zone. For me, staying well, it means trying my absolute best as a neurodivergent woman to head out of the green zone, which is people, please, a fawn response in terms of like trauma responses, and just absolutely no boundaries, you know. I can head there pretty easily before I talked about my excellent dad. I did 0 to 5 years of age in a very traumatic childhood setting, and so I do. I can do Fawn very quickly if I’m not careful. And so I just think. understanding how you’re showing up. How you’re moving through the world is just so important.
So I’m really grateful that she presented that to me. It’s changed my whole life. Honestly, I can recognize when I’m going red and oppositional, and then I know how to pull myself back. I can celebrate when I get to the elusive blue zone I’m like, Oh, this feels so good. This is why I’m feeling so well right now. So that’s the 1st thing. But outside of that it’s just what is. I just have to really acutely know what being well looks like for me, and I’m I’m just. I think I don’t know. I don’t mean to generalize here, but I’m 1 of the typical autistic women that I actually prefer the company of children over adults to be really honest with you, I find adults really difficult sometimes like, I’m not lovable by a lot of people, especially in group settings. I remember my husband. I used to play semi-professional football, and there’s not a single woman at that football club that likes me, and I don’t know why I tried.
Dr. Hayley: Struggle to understand that cherie.
Cherie: Oh no!
Dr. Hayley: Know you and like.
Cherie: Oh, I promise I’ll take you there sometime. They just don’t like me. I don’t fit their mold, or I tried. I really tried. I tried so hard, but I’m just not likable. I don’t know what it is. I wish I could find out. I don’t care. I’m not doing on it or anything. But you know, yeah.
Dr. Hayley: I have to interject here and say you’re extremely likable. So maybe it’s context, there’s a context in which perhaps, you find it harder to.
Cherie: Maybe.
Dr. Hayley: Be with people, because everybody I speak to that knows you thinks you’re wonderful.
Cherie: Oh, my God! I told that both can be true. Yeah, so I don’t know. I just I don’t always hit it off with all the adults. You know what I mean, whereas on the flip side I just get so much genuine autistic joy hanging out with kids. So my kids, to begin with, but the best thing about my kids is they’ve got friendship groups, and I really genuinely love their friends. I get so happy hanging out with them. There’s not a single weekend where we wouldn’t have 5 to 10 kids in our home, and I’m so happy, you know they we just it’s fun they do. We do each other’s hair makeup for some, or, you know, might sit and game with my son and his friends, or whatever it is right that makes me so happy, you know. More recently, my through my company, like I lease like a business owner should benefit from. I lease a car right, and it came to the end, and I knew I needed a new lease. So I was really deliberate about the car that I picked because I wanted a 7 seater, and it’s just it’s a hyundai. It’s nothing exciting but Haley. That car makes me the happiest woman because it’s a guaranteed ability to do what I love most, which is hang out with kids, you know, and on the weekend just gone we all went to this pool with slides, and the girls were singing Pink Pony Club at the top of their lungs, and I was just so bloody happy. I can’t even put it into words. So you know, it’s just yeah. I think it’s just knowing what makes you happy in order to stay well, and for me it’s just being around little humans. They’re fun. They’re funny, they’re honest.
There’s no bullshit, you know. They don’t lie. They just tell it how it is, and it’s just so safe for me as an autistic woman, and then just hobbies like my hobby is unfortunately bloody expensive. I love going underwater, so it’s not exactly the cheapest, you know, so I have to save up for it. But I just love under underwater no sound. It’s just the sound of the ocean, and it’s really calming and relaxing. And then I love turtles, and you gave me some turtle socks, and I was very grateful. I wear them every day. So I just yeah, that’s, you know, just exploring your hobbies and making sure it’s not just all about work for me, because I want to stay loving work, not hating it. Yeah.
Dr. Hayley: Absolutely because, and particularly for those of us who’d start our own businesses. You don’t start a business to not enjoy what you’re doing. I mean, we start businesses for lots and lots of reasons, but one of them is so that we can have choices in what we do, and that we can enjoy what we’re doing, so we don’t want to set up and find ourselves doing things that deplete us frustrate us, although there’s always going to be little frustrations in business. Right? Yeah, okay. ultimately, we do want to enjoy what we do. And and that’s totally okay, like we’re allowed to. I think there’s a lot of people can carry stories around, but I’m meant to be doing it because of this, or it should be hard, or it should be this. And it’s like we’ve got to be so careful about the stories we tell ourselves. So I love that you’re here sharing these things because it’s just so important, and you can see the joy when you talk about the things that you love as well. It’s really, really beautiful.
Cherie: So nice!
Dr. Hayley: Am excited that you’re going to be coming back next season. I think you might even be my 1st guest, my last guest of season 8, and my 1st guest.
Cherie: Oh, my lord!
Dr. Hayley: 9. So that’s kind of exciting. And we’ll talk more obviously during that next chat that we have. But I want to ask you now a question that I ask all of my guests, and I’m always curious for the answer on this one. If you could meet your 80 year old self today. what do you think she would say to you?
Cherie: Oh, gosh, I know for a fact, because I just have this. It’s funny you use that question because I got advice from my dad, and I’ve always I don’t know. I always say, Oh, it sounds sombra. But then I’ve heard that it’s apparently some sort of good neurosciency thing. I always picture the legacy like the eulogy. Sorry. So what would people say? By the way, I’m not thinking 80 is funeral land, but you know I think she would be so proud. I think I know for a fact. I already know before I’m even 80, that I’m a genuinely good person. I think I’m pretty unique as well. The more I talk the more I realize I’m not like other people. I don’t. I’m just not here to screw people over. It’s not even in my nature. It doesn’t even enter my brain to screw a person over. And I just like the way I move. You know, it’s just the combination of the smallest things like I I just try to do the best possible thing, kind of like all the time in ways that I’m recognizing more and more that other people don’t think like that. I like making people’s day. I love making complete strangers. Day. My head of finance has to put a ban on my Anz card every time I have a surgery, because when I’m under the influence of endone, I can do some pretty grandiose Gofundme donations. I just love scrolling through and finding the story that I’m like, oh, man, that’s so lovely. Let’s donate to this, you know. So yeah, I just I love me. I really do like I just love the impact I’ve already made.
If I got hit by a truck tomorrow, I think I’d be pretty happy with what I’ve packed into 42 years, and mostly, I think, 80 year old. Me would be so proud of the cycle breaking, you know, I just. I’m really so proud of not continuing Dv. Physical violence in general drug and alcohol abuse just the things from 0 to 5 that I was like. oh, this is heavy, you know, and so I never continued that. And now it stops with me, my kids, I’m so proud of who and what they’re becoming because of that, like I think 80 year old. May would be so bloody proud, you know. I think she would probably wish that I did something better for bone, related health. That would be one thing she’ll lecture me on, but outside of that I think she’d be like you’re done good.
Dr. Hayley: We can keep each other accountable because I just had a bone density. I encourage any woman. When they get to the age that it is important to get a bone density scan done because I’ve just had my results back, and they’re not great.
Cherie: I am keeping.
Dr. Hayley: Accountable on the weight bearing, and the all right.
Cherie: And they’ve I’m Buddy.
Dr. Hayley: Food and all the things we need to be doing for that, cherie. You are a remarkable woman, and I love that you say that you are. I think, very much as women. We have been socialised to not focus on ourselves and to always think about the other. And it’s not to say, don’t focus on the other, because I think that’s really important. And we need care includes community care. But we also need to recognise who we are and be, you know, celebrate who we are as well. So I love that you do that. Yeah, fantastic. I’m really excited that you’re going to come back and chat again. And in the meantime. where can people find you? I highly recommend that people follow you, even if they don’t need marketing help, because your social media and your team are a crack up. I love it. It’s the best. So just for some joy in your feed. Could go follow you anyway. Yeah. But if people want to do some learning, or they actually want somebody to help manage their social media. or they want to get some inspiration on how to be more neuro, inclusive in their own businesses. Where can people find you.
Cherie: Yeah, sure, I think, for the whole like gamut. It would be Instagram, probably that really good spot where you get a nice combination of some of the things you were discussing there, but a lot on education so honestly, if capitalism ceases to exist, I’m going to be the next Khan Academy. Every course will be free. That’s my one day dream. We’ll see. We’ll see what happens. But in the interim we just commit to lots of great education on Instagram. I hope that many of our followers don’t even have the need to do something based on what they might learn on every social platform that we share to in and of itself. So that’s a nice, all rounder kind of place to hang out with us is Instagram. The other thing is on Instagram. What I love most is we’re a DM. Away, and it’s usually audio unless there’s an accessibility. Reason why you wouldn’t be able to take in the audio.
But people are really surprised. They think our business is so big. And then it’s me in the DM. 7, 30 pm. Just being like, you need to do this, you know, and that will never change. So I love Instagram for that. Then I would say, if folks want to learn about me in terms of how I want to show up as a leader in this industry, it would be Linkedin. So just connecting with me on Linkedin, I’m really passionate about speaking about neuro, inclusive workplace design there, and just leadership in general. The only thing is I’m not great in the Dms there, because I get 70 dms every 3 days from sales folks pitching. It’s the worst thing about Linkedin. I drown in it. It’s awful. So I’m just not very responsive in the Dms. Because I just can’t. I don’t even see them, you know, but I try. But I just hope that the content that I’m sharing is enough there to make an impact in and of itself, without the DM, relationship as much, you know.
Dr. Hayley: So yeah, if somebody sees something in Linkedin and really wants to connect, jump on over to Instagram.
Cherie: Yeah.
Dr. Hayley: Am, and then you’ll.
Cherie: You get my 5 min audio response. Absolutely. I’m so available on Instagram don’t know what it is about, Linkedin, but they need to change that, because it’s just the worst feature being hardcore sold to as a Pda woman, by the way, every day. So. Yeah.
Dr. Hayley: Oh, my gosh! I will put all your information in the show notes. Thank you so much. And for your transparency, your honesty, and just for being you, cherie. Thank you so for joining me, and for being my last guest of season. 8.
Cherie: I’m honored. Thank you so much thrilled that you asked.
Dr. Hayley: Thank you. See you all next week.