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This transcript is computer generated and may contain errors and not be an exact representation of the audio
Dr Hayley D Quinn: Hi, and welcome to another episode, and today is going to be a great one. I first met my guest whilst we were both studying psychology, and then reconnected with her many years later at a training in Brisbane. Following which, I had the pleasure of being her supervisor, and in more recent times, she’s been a coaching client of mine. I’m thrilled to introduce you to Shannon A Swales.
Shannon is a clinical psychologist, author, and podcast host, specialising in burnout prevention and recovery. After navigating her own lived experience of midlife burnout, she now helps other midlife women reclaim energy, purpose, and compassion. Shannon is the author of Nothing Left to Give, A Psychologist’s Path Back From Burnout, and hosts the Midlife Reclaimed podcast, where she shares insights and conversations on midlife wellbeing. She also founded the Midlife Reclaimed Community, an online space offering support, resources, and connection for women navigating stress, overwhelm, and change.
Shannon blends evidence-based psychology with lived wisdom to inspire sustainable wellbeing. It’s not hard to see why we get along, and why I’ve invited her to share her story. It’s my absolute pleasure to welcome Shannon to the podcast. Hi, Shannon, and thanks so much for joining me.
Shannon Swales: Hey, Hayley, thank you so much for that lovely, intro, and yeah, I’m very, very happy to be here on your lovely, awesome podcast.
Dr Hayley D Quinn: Fantastic. Can you give us a bit of background for those who don’t know who you are?
Shannon Swales: Oh, I always find this question tricky, even today. A bit of background, well, I… well, I’m a midlife woman, in my mid-40s, I… originally, North Queenslander, born very much a, summer baby, I would say. Although, just in terms of the outdoors, very much swimmer, lifesaver, but also someone who, I think early on, just… Yeah, I gravitated towards, I suppose, that the helping, and wanting to help others. Second child syndrome, maybe? I don’t know. But, I gravitated into the psychology career sort of in my early 20s, after some struggle myself, with low mood, depression, and and it just… it just bloomed into… I loved learning about human behavior and making sense of the world, so that… that launched my, love for and… eventually became my job and my work, and so I’ve been, I suppose, studying and working, or studying psychology since 2001, but a psychologist… Well, counselor first, then psychologist since 2008.
And besides that, because it’s not just my work, although that has been a lot of my world, I’m also a doggy mama, which is something I… since I was 19, I’ve had, a dog. She’s passed on now, but I have two other little ones, and I love to travel, although my feet have been firmly planted for the last 5 years, for various reasons, but love to travel the world, particularly international, but my own country as well. Probably do that a little bit later. But yeah, I just love getting out there and seeing new places, so… I suppose that’s a little bit about me. Yeah, I always find that tricky.
Dr Hayley D Quinn: No, you did great, and I think it’s lovely that you mention things outside of work as well, because as we’ll probably talk about, you know, that can be somewhat of a risk, can’t it, when we’re only focused on our work? Now, I feel like I know the answer to this question that I’m going to ask you, but obviously the people listening don’t. But when did you first realize you were in burnout?
Shannon Swales: Hmm… I didn’t have the language burnout, which always shocks me, even to this… well, it doesn’t, because I know why I didn’t. No one was talking about… no one was using that language back in… 2020, 2019, not around me anyway, I’m sure out there they might have been. But I knew something was wrong. I knew I wasn’t okay, and I’d say… Unfortunately, it was later, retrospectively, I can see… pick it up earlier, but I probably knew things were definitely falling off the wagon, so to say, the wheels were off the wagon. It was December… It was, like, November, December 2020, And, yeah, you’ll remember, like, I was trying to diversify with my work as a solution, reduce down my workload, and find other work that was more interesting, and…
Dr Hayley D Quinn: more aligned with my values, could help balance that thing out, but it was just not happening, and…
Shannon Swales: that was when, yeah, things were really bad, and noticing that what I would now term burnout, amongst a couple other things, but burnout, definitely, I wasn’t okay. But I could at least articulate that, that I wasn’t okay. I think I was sharing that with you by then, at least, yeah, yeah, with you.
Dr Hayley D Quinn: Absolutely. And I think you speak to something really important, because there’ll be people… I mean, nowadays we’re having lots of conversations around burnout. I shared my own story a few episodes ago, and said exactly the same thing.
Nobody was talking about burnout, I just knew I was really unwell.
Shannon Swales: Mmm, yeah.
Dr Hayley D Quinn: You just know something’s not right.
Shannon Swales: Yeah, I could say that I was… but I’d always been anxious, but the anxiety was to a point of out of control, and my mood was down. I could label those things, because I had that knowledge and wisdom around anxiety and depression, or low mood, I could articulate that in certain… you know, things that were happening, like, with my thoughts. I was really self-critical, and yeah, just all of those things were amplified at the time, but I didn’t have, oh, this could be burnout. Or is burnout?
Dr Hayley D Quinn: I feel like there’s, like, this parallel now of the conversations that are happening around perimenopause and menopause, and women have been saying, I’ve noticed something’s not right, and now there’s language, and I think it’s fantastic, because we’re starting to have these conversations, particularly for women, around different things that are happening in life that we just haven’t had labels for.
Shannon Swales: And I think, you know, the conversations around burnout are really important.
Dr Hayley D Quinn: When you think back, When you can look back now. what were some of the signs and symptoms that you either missed or were minimizing? Because I know for me, in my experience, I was minimizing a lot of stuff, like, I should be able to cope, I need to get on with this. Yes. So, what were some of the signs and symptoms? Because one of the things I want to get across in this… in this season, for people listening, is… I think a lot of people don’t realize that they are heading towards burnout, and obviously you and I are both very passionate about burnout prevention, because recovery is such a long journey, and we’ll talk about that a little bit later as well.
Shannon Swales: Hmm.
Dr Hayley D Quinn: So I really want to sort of share… I shared some of the things I’d recognized, and I’m asking that of my guests, so that we can really pinpoint, like, these are the kind of things to be looking out for.
Shannon Swales: Hmm. I, I get pulled in two directions with the answer to that question. You know, meaning, like, I… like, signs and symptoms, but now with what I know about my personal experience and what I know professionally now, I also… rather than signs, or maybe this is just language and my language, more about the risk factors, there were things that I was doing behaviorally in how I was operating in my work world that were definitely flags, red flags, if you may, of, well, you might end up in burnout because of these things, the way you’re relating to your work. But I’ll start with signs and symptoms. The funny… well, not the funny, it’s not funny. Interesting thing is, my husband picked this one up, but didn’t tell me till later. Irritability, snapping, uncharacteristic behaviour. I mean, not so much that it seemed uncharacteristic.
Dr Hayley D Quinn: Hmm.
Shannon Swales: But… because it was just little snaps here and there, but it accumulated to that I was always snapping at everything. But early signs of that irritability. And the other one… that I recognize now was I was withdrawing, I’m not a big social person, but again, it wasn’t characteristic of me to completely shut away. Or I would go out, but it would be, like, another chore, rather than something pleasurable, or something I wanted to engage in. I was like, oh, I have to do this, or I should do this because it’s my family, or it, you know, or this is what people should do in life, you know? They should get out there and go to lunch, but… all I wanted to do was, you know, sleep all weekend… well, not necessarily sleep all weekend, just, you know, hide away all weekend. So that was another sign, and that would have been a slow build, not… And even, like, not having energy to do chores. I would push through it. But, like, that was another thing. Not that I was loving chores, who loves chores? Some people do, but, like, but, yeah, it’s just… Just those changes, and my husband would say to me again later, you just don’t laugh anymore.
You just don’t find anything funny.
And I think the other sign for me internally that you wouldn’t have seen outside is… I had a little big giggle there, because it’s like, well, this is just normal of me, being in my head. But I was in my head a lot, but about things work-related, it didn’t shut off. I could usually settle, I wasn’t settling, and that was then disrupting… that’s another one, Hayley, I didn’t even think of this. I don’t think they put this down as a symptom. But, irregardless of that, dreams, my dreams, were very stressy. They weren’t necessarily about work, they’re often about travel, but it’d be missing the plane, or something like that, or…
Dr Hayley D Quinn: Yeah.
Shannon Swales: packed the wrong things, or didn’t get to that holiday I wanted to, stressy dreams that, although I was kind of sleeping, I don’t think I was getting restful sleep. Certainly wasn’t waking up feeling restful. That was the other thing, waking up feeling absolutely… I mean, again, that was cumulative over time, but… it was just such an effort to get going, and I was just living on caffeine. Living on the adrenaline of Jim in the morning, which I now recognize was just another form of caffeine. To get me going in the morning, it’d be followed by caffeine, I’d have the adrenaline hit, and then the caffeine hit, just to survive the day.
Dr Hayley D Quinn: Yeah, gosh, there’s so many things, some of it where you were just not… really, you were kind of losing yourself, you were losing that sense of humor, you were getting more irritable, but you make a couple of good points there as well that, you know, I don’t know if they include that in the symptoms. I always say to people, you need to pay attention to what is different for you. What are you doing more of that’s perhaps not helpful? What are you doing less of that was helpful? And then you also mentioned that you lost your sense of humor. I’ll often share My roommate, Jacques, who you know from uni as well, he was my first guest on the podcast, and well worth a listen if anyone wants to go back to episode 2. And, he shared how… like, he’s a really funny guy, right? We know he’s a funny guy.
Shannon Swales: Yeah. But he had said… he got to the point where he was making jokes about everything.
Dr Hayley D Quinn: Like, everything was funny because he didn’t want to deal with how he was feeling, so he would just make jokes. And I always say to people, like, if I’m doing a talk or I’m doing a training, you wouldn’t look at somebody who’s being funny, or even yourself. If you were, like, making jokes and being funny, and think that you’re not okay. And yet, oftentimes, it’s those things that are the indicator that actually this is happening far more than it normally would.
Shannon Swales: This is actually.
Dr Hayley D Quinn: now an avoidance technique. It’s not actually me being humorous.
Shannon Swales: Yeah, oh, that’s so interesting. That makes my mind go off into, you know, like, the comedians of the world, famous comedians of the world, and how they’re often suffering. Yeah, so paying attention to what’s uncharacteristic for you. And what’s an avoidance behaviour for you? And it made me actually then flip to… to gym, because people are probably like, oh my god, going to 5am gym, she must be healthy and happy and okay. I wasn’t. I mean, I believe that that would have been somewhat of a protective and a saving grace, because there was some great elements of that, but it was also… another thing to distract me, especially if I was doing one of those challenges or something, which often I was, I was doing these perpetual challenges, it was just a way for me to not pay attention to what was going on and what I needed to pay attention to. Yeah, so I think it had that avoidance quality. As well as some great, you know, good things, because exercise is good for your body, and blah blah blah, but.
Dr Hayley D Quinn: And I wonder as well with that, if you were feeling, you know, you said your self-criticism showed up, and certainly I talk about that in my experience. I think when we’re less resilient, that self-criticism and self-doubt can really show up strongly.
Shannon Swales: Yeah.
Dr Hayley D Quinn: But you were saying that you were kind of feeling that with work, and I wonder if some of those challenges at the gym as well, you were actually feeling, like, a good sense of achievement? It’s like, oh, I’m actually doing something well here, this is going well.
Shannon Swales: Actually, that… and that’s something I have reflected on before, but you brought it back. That’s so true. It just shows how multidimensional that… having that in my life at the time was, you know, what it was feeling. Because, yes, a sense of achievement, because I didn’t feel I was getting anywhere at work, you know, I… yeah, and the self-critic, but also with some of the realities of my work as well, there was truth to that too, in terms of what I was getting my achievement from through that work. It is a reality. in that type of work, that often you don’t hit those kind of markers as often as you would love, or that would feel fulfilling. So yes, that would have fulfilled a part of me that I needed, 100%, because I did excel.
Dr Hayley D Quinn: not all the time, but, yeah, it, it, I did…
Shannon Swales: Achieve in that area, and it was a lot more inst… well, not instant, but a lot more regular.
Dr Hayley D Quinn: Yeah. I, in my upcoming book, I talk about burnout, and talk about the risk and protective factors in burnout. But again, yes, there’s a list of things we can look at, but it really is coming back to who you are as a person, isn’t it? And what is different for me? What is helpful for me? What is harmful for me? what’s happening for me that is a signal that things are not okay? So I love that you’ve talked about that. What I’d love to know is, what do you think has been the biggest impact on you?
Shannon Swales: From the… going through burnout?
Dr Hayley D Quinn: Yeah, when you were… when you were in the burnout, like, what was the biggest impact?
Shannon Swales: Hmm. in terms of, like, bad, because I always think of sometimes…
Dr Hayley D Quinn: Bad? Was it bad?
Shannon Swales: Well, a bit, like, in terms of, yeah, what burnout caused in going through that.
Dr Hayley D Quinn: Yeah. Because I know… I know, like me, you… you can look back on that now and see that there’s some real positives through that experience, so that’s not the bit we’re at yet.
Shannon Swales: No, okay, because I’m… That lens! Sorry, sorry.
Dr Hayley D Quinn: Let’s stay in the…
Shannon Swales: Yeah, same there. Well.
Dr Hayley D Quinn: Let’s not get burnt out because…
Shannon Swales: I mean, oh, so many. But the big… the one that made me really wake up was… my brain told… not my brain… my… at some point, my inner dialogue was like, you will lose your relationship, your marriage will go under. It wasn’t at the time, but there was some… well… there was some part of me that just was, like, I think it was my soul talking, it was like, hey girl, like, seriously, it can’t go on like this. He wasn’t saying anything, he wasn’t acting in any way that this relationship was going down the gurgle, so to say, but… yeah, it was just that wisdom coming up, and I was like, I don’t want to sacrifice that. That’s just not where I want to go. And that was a big awakening, and it did have… all throughout my burnout recovery, there was massive, and I haven’t spoken a lot about that, because my husband’s quite private, and I’m just respecting him that, but we’ve been through a lot. Even though I woke up and I started shifting, It… that’s been massive.
Dr Hayley D Quinn: And the other big area was my work.
Shannon Swales: that, you know, I had to stop. That impacted clients negatively. And, you know, they were taken care of and supported, but that still had an impact on them, and… And on the people, the place that I worked at, you know, that had a trickle-on effect with them. Again, they all rallied around and they were there, but that impact and my ability to work and earn an income, thankfully, I had some money saved, which I… change through as a result, because 2 months off work with, you know, you know, you’ve got to get the money from somewhere, and so massive impact on work. But I… I mean, like you said earlier, I can see that through a different lens now. I’m like, that… that’s okay, it’s been for the better. But at the time, it was like…
Dr Hayley D Quinn: It wasn’t at the time, huh?
Shannon Swales: That was my whole identity. That was who I am. I’m someone who’s chosen to be child-free, and here I am at 41, And I suppose from a society’s perspective, from a cultural perspective, all I would… and this was my words back then, all I was offering was my ability as a psychologist and working and contributing to community in that way. And I could no longer do that, so it was that identity piece that came from not being able to work, and not sure if I could ever work in that industry again, because I was like, I’m done. So that was huge. That… that was a big one. And I forgot how huge that was, I feel like I’ve connected to that now.
Dr Hayley D Quinn: I was like.
Shannon Swales: artwork was no big deal. No, it was the identity that was a big deal. and feeling like I had nothing to contribute, because it’s like… And then also the shame, like, I don’t even have children, and yet I’ve burnt out. And the shame of, I’m a psychologist, and I burnt out. I was carrying all that, because I’m like. yeah, like, I’m burnt out, but I… I suppose the picture I had in my head was someone who was juggling work and, you know, a woman juggling work and children. You know, I also have a very supportive partner who does his lion’s share in the house. We have a very, very democratic partnership. I don’t know what you call it, but, you know, he… he takes the load, he’s willing to learn, like, yeah, it’s just… Yeah, yeah, it was, it was a tough time.
Dr Hayley D Quinn: It’s a lot, isn’t it? I think you and I, you know, there’s things that you’re talking about I can so relate to, like, in terms of your marriage, I was newly married. fairly newly married when I hit my burnout, and that was one of my biggest fears, is that Chris is gonna realize that I’m not worth being with, and… that just… and then having to be financially dependent. And again, we were fortunate because we had money in the bank. Otherwise, I don’t know what I would have done, but that triggered a lot for me, having previously been a single parent.
Shannon Swales: Yes.
Dr Hayley D Quinn: So, it just impacts so many things, so depending on the situation people are in. I mean, this is why I’m just so passionate about it, because depending on the situation you’re in, this is gonna have… really significant consequences. They may look different for you, they may look different for me, but they are significant consequences if we get to the point where we are burnt out.
Shannon Swales: 100%, yeah. There’s so many, and I’ve got, like, there’s tons more, but they’re the big ones, they’re the big ones For me.
Dr Hayley D Quinn: Was there anything that particularly surprised or shocked you about your burnout experience?
Shannon Swales: Mmm… Oh, something came to me, and then it went, I think what shocked me… Well, later on, it’s realizing… the… I was very much blaming myself, and and even once I could step back from that, I was still looking at what did I do wrong, and what can I learn and improve on and do better. Like, I went into therapy, and I was focusing on the self. But I learned through the process, and once I had language and could understand what was going on. and could talk to and hear other stories. I was, sorry, my train of thought is going. I think that might be the perimenopause. Oh, my train of thought, I don’t remember. But I think… what was I saying? I was like, the surprise.
Dr Hayley D Quinn: Yeah, surprise.
Shannon Swales: Yeah, what was I saying? Sorry, my brain totally went dead.
Dr Hayley D Quinn: We’re both, we’re both having a night.
Shannon Swales: Well, my afternoon is crap. My brain just goes whoop! No, I can’t even remember what I was saying. We were talking… what was it? It was… what did surprise me?
Dr Hayley D Quinn: I’m surprised or shocked about your burnout experience?
Shannon Swales: I mean, one of the thoughts, and I don’t think this was what I was getting to, but just… how long it took. To recover. I think that shocked me, Because I think when we think about burnout, or as I was learning about it. That, oh, burnout, it’s… like, I almost put it, like, down here in depression, because I’ve had, I’ve had major depression before, episode. Thankfully it hasn’t been recurrent, but, like, I kind of put that, and I think it shocked me. How… How bad, it gets, and the ripple effect, and… and, you know, I already spoke about the relationships and work and health as well, like, I think that was the other thing that shocked me about it, how much that was linked to my body stuff as well. I had a lot of musculoskeletal issues, which I was… dutifully going to the remedial masseuse, but it was never getting better. Oh, lo and behold, chronic stress. Which had never been talked about, but, certainly since… attending to the chronic stress, I haven’t had any… well, haven’t had major musculoskeletal issues since. Thankfully, there’s nothing permanent that has been done. But, Besides the lower back, but that’s pre-burnout. But the… yeah, I think just how long it takes to recover, shocked me, a lot. Although I read about it. I think it just shocked me how serious of a… A thing, a condition it is.
Dr Hayley D Quinn: Yeah.
Shannon Swales: I mean, I knew I was not well, so I think I knew the seriousness, but I think I just, once I had the language of burnout and understanding that it’s a chronic stress thing, I was just, you know… I mean, I grew up in a household where my dad would say, you know, there’s no such thing as stress. Spoiler alert, yes, there is. I think he will… actually, I should ask him that next time I see him, or talk to him, and be like, you know when you used to say this, now that you’ve, you know, lived it, you know, he’s older, wiser, he’s had two daughters go through lots of mental health issues, it’s like. What’s your thoughts on that? Oh, maybe it’s real. I think he would say, he would acknowledge it now, yeah. Anyway, that shocked me a lot, about it, and just how many people have been through it, because once I had the courage to share. Especially amongst my peers, other psychologists, just how many of them said me too, and that…
Dr Hayley D Quinn: Absolutely. Shocked me, but also was a real warm hug, which seems weird to say, because I don’t want people to suffer.
Shannon Swales: But it felt like, okay, I’m not alone, and there’s not something wrong with me, you know? Yeah. Oh, I remember Haley! brain! That was the thing that shocked me, too. I was talking about, like, it was just…
Dr Hayley D Quinn: surprising to find out how much, and I wasn’t listening to this side of it, I was focused on the individual factors and what do I need to address.
Shannon Swales: when what I got to learn about the cultural, systemic, factors that relate to burnout, and I was… and I first thought, oh, that doesn’t relate to… to what I do, and… more and more I looked at it, I was like, oh, no, it does. The system I was working in, and how I was working, ex… yeah, I was like, no, no, no, yeah, that was definitely contributing. So that was surprising to connect with, and helpful. Very, very helpful.
Dr Hayley D Quinn: Absolutely, I think this is the thing, we can’t just see this as a personal issue. There’s so many factors that go into this, isn’t there?
Shannon Swales: Mmm.
Dr Hayley D Quinn: It does impact on so many levels, like you say, relationships, finances, health, and it does take a long time to recover from burnout. And I think one of the things, and one of my little pet peeves, is when we have this tendency to do this. is the way it’s minimized, people will say, oh, I’m feeling burnt out, when really they are tired, and that’s not to minimize people being tired, but, you know, a good weekend off or a holiday is going to fix that.
Dr Hayley D Quinn: Whereas burnout is…
Dr Hayley D Quinn: it’s deep, isn’t it? Yeah. And it takes a long time, and having, you know, a few early nights is not gonna work. Like, for me now, if I’m feeling tired, I start to do things like have a few early nights.
Shannon Swales: Yet.
Dr Hayley D Quinn: rest more than I normally… like, I factor in rest every day anyway, but I might factor in some more rest. I might cancel some non-essential things that I was gonna go to. So that I don’t get to burn out. Once you’re at burnout, it’s like trying to put out a fire with a glass of water. I mean, it’s…
Shannon Swales: set, I like that. But that’s why, yeah, it’s a bit of a pet peeve when I hear people that I’m like, I don’t know their story, I don’t know what their…
Dr Hayley D Quinn: I’m like…
Shannon Swales: Please don’t use burnout for tired. That’s tired. Burnout is, what, that deep… I had a guy I interviewed on my podcast, he called it a soul tired, or I think that’s been talked about as well in the literature, a soul tired, like, it’s to… or bone tired. It’s… no amount of holidays or sleep rectifies it.
Dr Hayley D Quinn: It’s… Mmm.
Shannon Swales: I mean, as they classify, emotional exhaustion, but I think that soul exhaustion, that soul bone tire.
Dr Hayley D Quinn: Goodbye.
Shannon Swales: gets the essence of the difference between tired and burnout. Yeah, it’s…
Dr Hayley D Quinn: And it takes a life overhaul, doesn’t it? You can’t go then back. It’s like, okay, well, I’ve done some resting, I am now out of burnout, miraculously, somehow, from just resting.
Shannon Swales: And now I’m just gonna go back to what I was doing, and…
Dr Hayley D Quinn: everything’s gonna be fine. I mean, it really takes a life overhaul, doesn’t it? I’ve not spoken to anybody yet, and I used to, when I was supervising other psychologists, I spoke to a lot of people, like you say, who were burnt out. And had to make changes to what they were doing.
Shannon Swales: Yeah.
Dr Hayley D Quinn: Because if we then go back into the situations that we’re in, whether that’s the personal factors or the systemic factors, we are likely just going to end up back in the same place, right? So what sort of things did you do to recover, and what are the sort of things you do now.
Shannon Swales: to stop.
Dr Hayley D Quinn: you going back there, because I’m sure you’re like me, and it’s like, I am never going back to burnout.
Shannon Swales: 100%, doing my best to not go back there. What I did back then, well, although I’d say I was pushed to not work, and that… meaning my body, not anybody else.
Dr Hayley D Quinn: I was gonna say, wasn’t me.
Shannon Swales: No, no, no one pushed me.
Dr Hayley D Quinn: A gentle, a gentle suggestion, maybe.
Shannon Swales: Yeah, you’re such a saving grace. You were the first person that I really… I mean, I think you knew before I knew, like, something’s not gone on, but you were so great in nurturing that process. But taking that time off, and actually, okay, my body pushed me to it, I couldn’t show up anymore, but then allowing that? Because that was a process. to allow that to be, and thankfully, I had people around me, like the director at the practice I was working at, saying, you know, giving permission, basically, or, you know, like, it’s okay, my husband, it’s okay, you know, if need be, I’ll float us, like, it’s okay. There was just a whole heap of permission to help my inner voice go, it’s okay, we can take this time off. So I did that. I also made a huge… it was a huge commitment, anyone who goes into therapy, it’s huge, made a commitment to, okay, you’re going into therapy. Lucky it was COVID time, so there was the mental health care plan with 20 sessions. That really helped financially. But… so I did fortnightly, but I would have done therapy anyway. That was really helpful, and found a really good psychologist locally as well, because I… that was another thing I did. I… I kind of… although I was withdrawing anyway, but I felt… and I’ve noticed this with other people, too, that it can be useful to begin with, that almost making their world a little bit smaller. Like, having… having people, you know, not doing it alone, you know, the therapist, husband, friend, whatever, doctor… But just in terms of input, because I had to become… I needed to care for myself. It became about me, and I needed less exposure of other people’s stuff. And even travel, like, so I found a local psychologist, it was great. Anyway, I did that. I, even when I went back to work, because financially I needed to, I did something completely different. I went and I worked only part-time. I went… I knew I couldn’t go back into the therapist’s chair, it wouldn’t be right for me or for them. I went back… I went into teaching, so something a bit different, which was… you know, which was good, but that part-time work helped, because it also helped me give a sense of that I was doing something, but without putting myself too at risk, of burning out, although it had its challenges. But anyway, there was that. Lots of nature time, especially when I wasn’t working. I would just take… I had little Hannah at… oh, she’s still with us, but she was a little puppy then. So I just spent my time and my days, I would walk her, then I’d journal, just lie on the couch, I did a lot of journaling, did a lot of walking and nature time. Yeah, that was pretty much… a lot of, a lot of my focus, and in the therapeutic work, I did a lot of, focusing on compassion, and doing a lot of work in that, outside of the therapist’s therapy room.
What I do now to help prevent the burnout, reoccurring. I work completely different, as you know. Completely different. I actually learned… this was a surprising turnaround in my burnout recovery, is I realized I had this conceptualization that what stresses me out is having too much on the go. Like, too much variety in my work. And lo and behold, what actually fills my soul, my soul just loves it, is variety, so the way I work Lo and behold. Whereas my… yeah, anyway. I… so I, you know, run a podcast. I… I’m back working with clients one-on-one, but I’m very, I work from home, which is something I… that’s great for my energy levels, you know, so I do the one-on-one work, but it’s all very much niching too, which was another conscious choice. I… I think one of the things, you know, I’ve learned to listen to my soul, I’ve learned to listen, or intuition, whatever you want to call it, I’ve learned to listen to my energy levels, so what I do for work and what I do outside of work is based on those things. So yeah, variety. creative things, yeah, just minimizing the one-on-one work, but in the work, doing the niching, you know, niching that work in the burnout space, which I love, and midlife, and I still do nature. I still get out in nature every day, with the dogs. Thankful for the dogs, because they have to get walked, and I love walking them anyway, but that’s a must, and that’s a non-negotiable in our family. They get a walk every day. But it allows us to get out, and it’s a family walk, because my husband now, because he used to be a shift worker, we never really saw each other, he works from home now, with his job.
Dr Hayley D Quinn: Oh, fantastic.
Shannon Swales: And so we get a family walk every day, so there’s that, what else do I do differently? A lot of it is just how I treat… Hmm. Like, those things like soul and energy, it’s like, where’s my energy at today? What’s… what do I have capacity for? I think that’s a big difference, and often one I’m working with with my clients, rather than what my mind used to tell me what I should be able to do, or must do, or… And it’s about… I’m in the picture as well, that’s what’s different, like, too, is… I’m not… It’s not about everybody else, so I’m no longer… That’s the other thing that’s different. I know I’m no longer led by fear, and my fear was letting other people down. My fear was not other people being pleased with me.
Dr Hayley D Quinn: Which is very dangerous when you work as a caregiver. Yeah, absolutely.
Shannon Swales: Burnout material. Now I’ve been able to work through that fear, that’s been a huge thing, but, I now move from a place of connection with that soul and values, and what… I’m in the picture now. They’re still in the picture, because that’s part of my value system, part of what my soul wants to do, but it’s… yeah, I’m led by… yeah, I don’t know, that’s a long, winded…
Dr Hayley D Quinn: I love that. Look, I think you’re speaking my language, right? I think we absolutely need to prioritize ourselves and realize we’re the greatest asset we’ll ever have.
Shannon Swales: Yeah.
Dr Hayley D Quinn: If we don’t take care of ourselves, then everything else is going to fall down. So, you know, even if people’s strong motivation is about caring for other people, you’re going to care better for other people if you’re caring for yourself.
Shannon Swales: Yeah.
Dr Hayley D Quinn: Hopefully it’s not your only motivation, and the motivation is you’re a worthwhile, desiring human being that needs to be taken care of.
Shannon Swales: Yeah.
Dr Hayley D Quinn: But, yeah, I love that. I mean, we have to be in the picture. And one of my favorite quotes is from Jack Cornfield of, you know, if the compassion doesn’t include yourself, it’s incomplete.
Shannon Swales: Yeah. Which is so true, and we’re so good at… Flowing compassion outwards, and…
Shannon Swales: I don’t know.
Dr Hayley D Quinn: sometimes we can build that self-compassion and receiving compassion. Those two, for me, when I’ve worked with people, and certainly for myself, were definitely the harder ones.
Shannon Swales: Yeah.
Dr Hayley D Quinn: You know, we can’t just be putting compassion out in the world all the time and expect that we’re going to be okay, because it can’t work like that, just doesn’t work like that.
Shannon Swales: And actually, that reminded me, yeah, that flow of compassion, the big one that I recognized through my recovery is I wasn’t… and I never worked in this way, or lived in this way, I never allowed people in. Not truly. Like, you’d look at me and go, oh, I’ve got colleagues, I’ve got friends.
Dr Hayley D Quinn: But I was always the helper. Yeah. And that was the same in my family. I was always the helper, or I was quiet, just watching things go by. But.
Shannon Swales: And that, yeah, it was, like, learning to allow that help in. Now, you’ll see me connecting, like, I… I can’t believe how many, kind of, groups or connection things that I’m involved in. I’m… I mean, I’m still learning and growing in that space, but I’m no longer this solitary psychologist, you know? I… I am… yeah, connected, and that’s such a saving grace, and definitely what my soul needed, because I was so isolated back then, that made me even more insular, and just caught up in those thoughts of self-criticism and shame, whereas the more I expand my world, I just… ugh, those connections… And finding the people that you connect with, you know, and being lucky too. Yeah, it’s… oh, it just makes a world of difference. And I’ve done that in my personal world as well. There’s some friends I’ve… well, probably just one, that I’ve, or other friendships that have changed as a result of me changing.
Dr Hayley D Quinn: It’s…
Shannon Swales: some… Yeah, it’s more quality there rather than quant…
Dr Hayley D Quinn: Oh, yeah.
Shannon Swales: Just quality. Connection’s important, hey? Looking back.
Dr Hayley D Quinn: What do you think has been your one biggest lesson?
Shannon Swales: Well, it came to me straight away to listen to myself. I ignored myself for so long. I can look back now, and I should do a timeline. I could do a timeline. And there was little markers along the way of my intuition speaking to myself. Like, even back in my 20s, I think, or early teens, or no, late teens, it was like. I can’t even remember what she said, but… there was just little markers of things. Like, I think, oh, early on in my career, I think while I was still studying, or maybe in post-grad, and it was saying, hey, I think… we need a niche, or you’ll really enjoy that, but I ignored that because that didn’t fit the picture of what I thought a clinical psychologist should do.
Dr Hayley D Quinn: Yeah.
Shannon Swales: I was listening to the head. If I listened to the body, and not just intuition, but the whole body, I was so up here, and the biggest lesson has been to be down here, and I’m still learning that lesson, I’m still… I’m… this ain’t a… no one’s perfect specimen, but, you know, I’m still learning, I’m still going through some behavioural patterns that need to change.
Shannon Swales: But I listen now. I… I… I listen from here more than here. That’s been huge. I never listened from here. I love that.
Dr Hayley D Quinn: And I think, you know, you’re learning, I think we all are, and for me, this is a daily practice, this is a daily relationship with yourself, isn’t it? This isn’t a, I’m gonna learn how to do this, and then I’m good, I’m good, everything’s gonna be fine.
Shannon Swales: Yeah.
Dr Hayley D Quinn: This is a daily connection with self and paying attention and listening, isn’t it? If you had one thing to say to people listening today, what would it be?
Shannon Swales: Hmm… Oh, God, so many things. Well, just what came to me was just… yourself is the biggest treasure that you have. I don’t know why that… I know why that comes to me, but just in those words that… You are. a treasure, a treat as such, and you’re worth it, and I know that’s a hard place to get to, so… Find someone who can help you with that. There’s so many lovely people like yourself, Hayley, and others out in the world who are helping people with yeah, coming back to themselves, or finding themselves, and… or whatever. Discover… for me, it felt like this process was a discovery of self, because I don’t think I ever knew her. Not as an adult, but not really as a child either, and just discovering self, and you are a treasure. Everyone’s a treasure, as far as I’m concerned.
Dr Hayley D Quinn: Certainly.
Shannon Swales: It’s finding what that, you know, like, finding that treasure, and treasuring her.
Dr Hayley D Quinn: It reminds me of my Welcome to Self experience in Byron when I went to a training and really connected with myself for the first time in my life.
Shannon Swales: No.
Dr Hayley D Quinn: And really understood fundamentally that I am a worthwhile, lovable human being, no matter what I’m putting out in the world, no matter how I’m feeling, what I’m doing, what I look like, none of it.
Shannon Swales: Yeah.
Dr Hayley D Quinn: And that was my, kind of, like, ugh, welcome to self, and it’s been life-changing, so…
Shannon Swales: I love that.
Dr Hayley D Quinn: Like, that’s been your… your thing for people.
Dr Hayley D Quinn: This is a question I ask all of my guests, and I love it. And I got asked it the other day when Emily interviewed me for my story. You could meet your 80-year-old self today. What do you think she would say to you?
Shannon Swales: I just want to give her a hug. That was an immediate visualization, like, you made it tidy! What would she say to me? I just… for me, I don’t know why, but… I mean, I do know why. I just… rather than words, for me, I feel like it’s an exchange of… Affection, and cuddles. And care, and… That’s… I know that’s not an answer to that question.
Dr Hayley D Quinn: What is it?
Shannon Swales: It’s not words, and it’s something… I know why I feel that, and see that, because it’s something that I… It’s gonna be a bit deep, but… I didn’t come from an affectionate family. They showed their love in other ways. The practical, the… you know, they were always… and showing up. Showed up, practical. you were taken care of, always, which was beautiful. They still, to this day, show up, which is really lovely. Never miss a thing. But I was a kid and a human who loves a faction. I am drawn to it, I love it. I love receiving it now, too, I’m better at that, and I think that’s what the exchange would be, that I just… That, I can’t even remember which way it was, because it just feels like it’s all meshed now. Was it the 80-year-old self to me, or me to the 80?
Dr Hayley D Quinn: Yeah, if you met her today, what would she say or do?
Shannon Swales: Yeah. I think she’ll just give me a big hug. And she’d also just… I think some gentle… you’re doing… Doing well, or… She just… I don’t know if she’d say you are enough, but she just… Like, I’m here… You’re doing well, everything’s okay. You’re beautiful, Yeah, and I’d just be like, cool, I made it to 80. I never used to be someone who… I’d be like, oh my god, 80, we made it to 80. I never used to be someone who wanted to grow old, and that is something that changed through the burnout, to be honest. Not that I was… I just never… I just… like, oh, I just had this picture. Now I’m kind of like, no, I want to live as long as my body can do it, you know, my mind and whatever, like… I just think it’s such a blessing to… to be in life, and there’s so much to give right up until that day dot, whatever it is, and so I’m like, however long I can get, 90, 100, my husband’s, nana lived to… nan lived to 99, and in very good nick as well, almost right up to when she passed, Yeah, I’m like, that’d be cool. Anyway, one can hope.
Dr Hayley D Quinn: instead.
Dr Hayley D Quinn: Thank you so much, Shan. And I’ll put in the show notes where people can connect with you. Do you want to just briefly tell us where you are online?
Shannon Swales: Yeah, easy way to find me, I mean, you just Google Shannon A. Swales, I’m the only Shannon A. Swales. You actually helped me, because, because there is another Shannon Swales, and I know there’s another, Hayley Quinn, so Hayley D. Quinn, Shannon A. Swales. But yeah, my website’s Shannon A. Swales, so www.shannonazwales.com. Everything’s there, my podcast, all my work, so if you… if you’re interested or keen, just, yeah. Put that in the search engine, and you’ll find me.
Dr Hayley D Quinn: Fantastic, and I’ll put those in the show notes. So, thank you so much for coming on, it’s been such a pleasure.
Shannon Swales: Thank you for having me and allowing me to share my story with your listeners.
Dr Hayley D Quinn: Oh, you’re so welcome. Having seen you at the height of your burnout, and then watched you and worked with you through, you know, the last few years, and helped you working in your business has just been such a delight, and always here to cheer you on from the sidelines, absolutely.
Shannon Swales: And I want to… yes, which reminds me, and sorry, I mean, I wouldn’t be where I am today without you. Just seriously. No, that makes me tear up. Because honestly, Hayley, like, it’s the people around you That help you. You know, yes, we do a lot of the legwork ourselves, but it’s the beautiful human beings like yourself, because, yeah. Yeah, I don’t know, like, I think it was serendipitous, is that the right word? you at that training, and I went to you as a super… to be supervised for a particular therapeutic, mode, CFT, but really. I need… I met a compassionate other who could see things that I wasn’t seeing. And I would… yeah, and then helped me through that process of everything that went down. You were the first compassionate other, and I think I say in my book, there was 3 compassionate others. You, were the first, then there was my director, Ilsez Wubla. who met me with such compassion once I opened up to her, and then my psychologist, Cara. But you were the first. And you’ve been there the whole time, through this journey as well.
Dr Hayley D Quinn: It’s been my absolute pleasure. It really has. I’m so excited for you and your future and everything, and thank you again for being here. And thank you to all of you for tuning in. I have no doubt you’ll have taken stuff away from this episode, and also the book. is in final stages. We’re going to be opening pre-orders in, I think, less than a month by the time this is aired, this episode, so if you’re not already on the book waitlist, you can find the link to that in the show notes as well. But until next week, go well and go gently with yourselves. Bye.