Episode #6 – Exploring perfectionism with Jennifer Kemp
In this episode, I had the pleasure of chatting with the lovely Jennifer Kemp. Jennifer and I cover how she got to where she is today and what challenges she has overcome within her work.
Hi, this is Welcome to Self ™ Caring for the Human in the Therapist Chair, and I’m your host, Dr. Hayley D Quinn, fellow human, clinical psychologist, supervisor and trainer. Welcome to Self ™ is a place where you can come and learn ways to elevate your own care and compassion. A place to rest, be soothed, and at times maybe gently challenged to think about yourself and your practice. A place to remember that you are human first, choose the helping profession is just one of the roles in your life. My aim is that this is a place of soothing, comfort, nourishment, growth and nurture. A place where you can also welcome your self.
Hi, welcome to another episode. I’d like to thank Elisha on Facebook for her comment on the podcast. Elisha said:
“I listened on my morning walk and really enjoyed it. Looking forward to listening some more.”
So glad you’re enjoying Elisha and thanks for taking the time to leave your feedback.
I’d now like to introduce you to my next guest, Jennifer Kemp. Jennifer is a Clinical Psychologist in private practice, living in Adelaide, Australia. She balances time with her family with seeing clients, writing, presenting, and providing consultations to professionals seeking to deepen their therapeutic practice and application of ACT. Jennifer specializes in helping people struggling with perfectionism, anxiety, OCD, eating disorders, weight management and chronic illness. Jennifer is the author of, “The ACT Workbook for Perfectionism”, which will be out in December this year and integrates ACT and self-compassion skills to help people overcome the dark side of perfectionism without compromising on their standards of excellence and the benefits this can bring.
It is my pleasure to welcome Jennifer to Welcome to Self ™
Hayley: So hi, Jennifer lovely to have you on the podcast. Thanks for coming on.
Jennifer: I’m really excited to be here. I think this is a really interesting project that you’re doing, I’m kind of keen to learn a bit more.
Hayley: I have some quite lovely memories actually of meeting you at an ANZ ACBS conference down in Canberra.
Jennifer: Yeah, yeah. Oh, such a great conference. I really enjoyed it!
Hayley: I was trying to think when it was and then I had the whole you know how 2020 has done this kind of time wall for everybody?
Jennifer: Yes, the black hole, when did anything else happen? I know, it was funny. It would have been 2018 I think.
Hayley: Yeah, thanks for that.
Jennifer: Yeah. Yeah.
Hayley: Pre 2020.
Jennifer: Yeah, that’s basically it’s like a line on everything, isn’t it?
Hayley: Fantastic, all right so do you want to start with just telling us a little bit about yourself? And what actually drew you to the helping professions?
Jennifer: Yeah, sure. Actually, I didn’t take exactly a straight line to the helping professions. I’m a clinical psychologist based in Adelaide, in Australia, but I certainly didn’t start like that I did psychology straight out of school, and one thing I knew when I finished my psychology degree was I was never going to become a psychologist, like I was just not interested at all.
Jennifer: I went off and worked in banks, and in consulting, I ended up working for big companies like Price Waterhouse, Coopers and IBM and worked in different places in the world, and I kept sort of coming back through change management and the people side.
Jennifer: So even though I was just sort of generally trained in analytical skills, I guess with an honest degree in psychology, which led me to want to do more training. So I kind of headed off in that direction. And it was only in the sort of mid 2000s that I decided I wanted to actually register as a psychologist with the encouragement of my now husband. I actually got my registration as a psychologist, the confirmation email, on the day I went into labour to have my first child.
Jennifer: In the car on the way to the hospital, and this email popped up, so like. So that’s where I kind of started exploring, being a psychologist, I did the four plus two and then I eventually retrained as a clinical psych. But even doing that, I was sure I was going to come out of that and just sort of focus on assessments like the fit talk therapy stuff didn’t really interest me, but somehow in all my placements, I just fell in love with it.
Jennifer: I just love it now I can’t imagine doing anything else. Although I do love the other aspects of my work as well, writing, teaching and stuff like that too, but yeah, I can’t imagine doing any other job now it’s weird.
Hayley: It’s interesting, isn’t it? I think a lot of people don’t always know where they’re going to end up. But something happens during the training.
Jennifer: Yes, it’s quite transformative. Isn’t that training? It changes you as a person in some ways.
Hayley: There’s part of me as well if I’m hearing this on, like, your email popped up during labour and you checked your email?
Jennifer: Well, I wasn’t actually in life, I was going to be induced. So I wasn’t having contractions. Just to clarify, I was going to have a baby but he was way overdue. This baby so I was going to be induced. So I think it just like you just distracting yourself with everything at this point.
Hayley: Fair enough. So you have a special interest in perfectionism. What is it that brought you to that?
Jennifer: So just before I went back to do my clinical masters, I went to do a one day training workshop with Tracey Wade here in Adelaide, it was on perfectionism as a trans diagnostic process. She specialises in eating disorders. And I think in perfectionism, is an area of interest of hers. And as I walked in, it was like, for me, the penny dropped, I was suddenly realised that like, all the struggles that I’ve been having over my life, were really linked in with that. So I had an eating disorder when I was in my teens and anxiety in my 20s, and a depressive episode in there as well. And I’ve really struggled with feedback in any of the jobs that I’ve had, like, just finding it crushing to get feedback, I think. And that meant that I wasn’t perfect or there something wrong with me. And so I just found myself almost out of ideas and my eyes is completely filled up in tears. So I walked in, she was playing a song called never good enough by Rachel Ferguson, she’s been kind enough to send me the link to that since and, and it just was like, Oh, my God, this song is about me. Yeah. And it was great, because I, in a sense, because I like I literally wrote down all of these things that are these links that made sense for me. And I was seeing therapist at the time. So I was just about to start a masters, which is the sort you need therapy for. And I took that in and said here, this is, this is what I need to be working on. And of course, I had therapy in my teens. And in my 20s. Here, I was sort of my, it would have been early 30s. And no one had picked it up. No one had kind of said, this is it this is something we need to work on here. Whether they seen it as sort of just part of my personality, that was something that couldn’t change. And I started working on it, then to some degree in that therapy. But I think I’ve probably done more work, like really on it myself since then. That’s, that’s sort of 12 years ago now. And I’ve been working on it since. I’m still working on it. And yeah, I so I did my thesis on that as part of my physical masters. And I started seeing clients after my maters and talking to them about this issue. And that’s kind of where my thinking has come from. Not just my experience, but it’s sort of watching all those amazing clients really grapple with it as well. Learning from them. Yeah.
Hayley: But that moment of kind of really recognising yourself in what was being talked about.
Jennifer: Yeah, yeah, it was profound. Like I was pushing back tears all day. My eyes were just glassy all day. It was a really it was just a theoretical workshop. It wasn’t even like an act workshop where you’re supposed to cry all the time it was just a normal everyday workshop.
Hayley: I think when that information comes across your bow there, it touches you deeply, doesn’t it when I’ve talked a lot about my sort of passion for CFT because it felt just so relevant for me and I recognise so much in this sort of self criticism and shame piece of that. I think it just becomes quite profound, doesn’t it? And I think you feel quite seen.
Jennifer: Yeah, yeah, absolutely. Yeah. Yeah. I think that’s the experience I have now. And I do seem to supervise other psychologists and I, I have clients who are Chinese psychologists, and I teach at uni. And whenever I talk about this topic, people’s eyes, turn into little saucers, you know, like, Oh, my God, you’re talking about me. After I run workshops for other professionals on perfectionism, even if I’m talking about what they might do with their clients that come up and talk to me about what am I do, what would they need to do? So I think it’s really relevant topic that a lot of psychologists and therapists struggle with in formal professions. Yeah.
Hayley: And I think, you know, when you think about the sort of requirements of doing University and doing postgraduate University, that sort of high achieving perfectionistic traits are probably, I mean, I don’t know, you would likely know, I don’t know, but I would imagine are higher than in many other areas.
Jennifer: Yeah, I think it’s a context that breeds that now. It’s so competitive, to get into honours to get into a masters. And so, I mean, you can still, like work really hard without hitting those kinds of unhelpful aspects of perfectionism. But it’s the pool to get it right, you know, is to make sure to be sure that you’re doing your best work all the time. There’s absolutely there. I think it in a way, I think that the training programme for psychologists certainly I don’t know about other professionals as much, almost screams of perfectionism. You know, like, it’s kind of looking for it, and rewarding it. And then you walk in on your first day, I don’t know, if they did this for you that you walk in, on your first day of the Masters, they say, right, you’ve all got here now. So you can stop worrying about your marks. Some of us, I had to work really hard at that. But some people succeeded. And some people were still like, freaking over the fact that they didn’t get an HD and why am I not getting these marks, doesn’t matter. Like they don’t matter anymore. I can see myself as really, really hard.
Hayley: I think you know, with people, other psychologists and therapists that I work with, I think we see this and just listening to other people. You see this following through and needing to their notes to be perfect or needing reports to be a certain way. So one of the one of the things I wanted to ask you is how do you think perfectionism might show up for helping professionals? And what are some things people can be mindful of in recognising those perfectionistic behaviours in themselves? Because I think sometimes people don’t recognise it as perfectionism, because they’ve perhaps always been that way. Yeah, what, you know, coming into that training of like, Oh, my gosh, that’s me. So, what do you think? How does it show up? And how can we recognise that when it’s showing up for us?
Jennifer: Well, I can answer this, I could answer this question just topographically and give you a bunch of a list of, you know, behaviours that you might see. But I actually think it’s different for everyone. So when I talk about perfectionism, I really talk about it as a set of processes in the sense so and they have a look for besides different it, because I think it’s, there’s a common stereotype that it is the overachiever, but actually, I have many perfectionistic clients who are kind of stuck, being able to achieve for really anything can’t finish any work and those kinds of things. So I think it’s a few things. It’s setting high standards for yourself that there’s nothing wrong with setting high standards. So to say that right now, it’s nothing wrong with that, because hitting them in all good. She says, setting them in a way that’s really rigid, so that it becomes a rigid role. So as a therapist, it might be like, an expectation of yourself, like I must, I must help every client all the time. You know, every in every session, I should be having some major breakthrough, that client, I must always like I must never sort of miss something. Like the number of times we’ll get a session that oh, I miss, you know, or I must, you know, always be on top of my game. My notes must be perfect. Those sorts of things, to setting really rigid expectations, I think is a problem. And a really big problem for therapists that we’re constantly struggling with it And I think for therapists, you know, we’re also motivated to help. We’re also, like, we do this job because we want to be useful, we want to be helpful for people, I think the flip side of that can be really strong fear of failing to. So even if you don’t see very high risk clients, you still want to do the best for them. So when they come in, and they spend their money, and they see you, and you feel like I wasn’t helpful at all, no, that comes with a huge amount of self criticism. So it’s both that kind of fear of failing, or failure of the client not improving, or me not doing a good enough job as a therapist, in some way, like not using the techniques properly, kind of stuffing up that metaphor, or to use or being clunky in trying a new skill. And then it’s like criticising yourself. So if I set really high standards that are rigid, and they’re always just out of reach, then how am I you know, and then I’m constantly going to feel like I’m failing, and beat myself up when I do. That’s sort of characteristic of perfectionism that, you know, those sorts of processes going on, as I would say, in therapists over time. And then you see a whole bunch of avoidant behaviours and they’re the ones that you sort of initially asking about, like, what would I see? They’ll be things like, being excessively prepared. spending too long on notes and letters and meetings, to just be right. Chasing that perfect therapy. The one that always gets a laugh is like, buying more books, or going to more training.
Everyone likes Oh, yeah. Oh, yeah, that’s me. And if I was in my home office, right now, you’d be seeing a wall of books.
Most of which that I haven’t read But I own them. So maybe, maybe I’ll be good enough. If I can just have that book.
Hayley: I talk about that in terms of, you know, when we get in our threat system and feel like we’re not good enough, and we if we’re driven by that, it can be like, all like, well, I’ve booked on to the next course. And I’ve, I’ve ordered those books, they’ll be coming. But it doesn’t make it go away, does it?
Jennifer: Yeah, no, it doesn’t. And actually, you know, the threat system, or what I would call behaviour under aversive control is kind of, I think we’re talking about the same thing. Yeah, using slightly different language. So that fear of failure drives a whole lot of these avoidant behaviours like that kind of active, like I have to work harder scramble and see more clients or spend like Hours doing my notes. And you also get that kind of passive avoidance to I don’t know, like that freeze response, you again, to a threat, which would be you know, avoiding certain clients or certain issues I you know, another thing that always gets a laugh is, you know, when that client cancels, and you can feel like, it’s just I’m relived because I was feeling scared like that client is aversice, I don’t know what I’m doing. Supervision is so important. And then procrastinating and who I’m proud to say I’m really quick on letters now pretty much see the client, I try and rattle off my letters, I fast writing them, and I write them before I leave them that day or the next day. But I used to have a list of 20 letters that would be sitting there, like I need to write iand they stack up. And I would be just like, Oh, I don’t want to do this and then end up spending all day Sunday writing his letters, harder to write because they weren’t fresh in my mind. So you know that procrastination is really a hallmark of, you know, perfectionism to o youe end up doing nothing.
Hayley: I think that’s a really good point. Because that, you know, I hear that a lot. Is that, you know, I’ve got all this stuff to get done, but it feels so aversive. Yeah. Rather than I can just get it done, and it can be good enough.
Jennifer: Yeah, yeah, I’ve got to the point where I write my GP letter, give it a quick scan over and send it and it’s gone. And I never thought I’d get to that because it’s really labour over the knee to really have it be a thorough conceptualization but actually just want an update. They just want a quick update and setting my expectation low and on what I do spend a lot of time on some letters to be fair. That’s that I’m flexible about that. Some big updates, letting you know where we’re at, this is what we’re working on and others like, Okay, I’ve got something I need to really communicate here. And that’s that flexibility, that standard. I’m not holding all letters to that same, same standard.
Hayley: So what would be some of the things like some of the favourite skills perhaps that you teach to your perfectionistic clients that you also use for yourself that our listeners might find helpful?
Jennifer: If you’ve ever attended a workshop or a seminar of mine, I would have probably talked about passengers on the bus metaphor in ACTS, which is the one, which I think made it was almost like, not the final penny to drop but for me, really life changing doing that. And that the first time I was really, I heard of the metaphor, but the first time I really did the metaphor was when I put my hand up and volunteered to be, you know, the person demonstrated on in a workshop. So would have been before the Canberra conference, the Melbourne conference in 2017. That’s how I know that Canberra was 2018. And that was David Galanders. Did that did ran a workshop on working with chronic illness, and it was really moving. He kind of reached in and pulled out. My perfectionistic self critic, basically, this is the one that says, always critiquing me and telling me I’m not doing good enough job or why did I make that stay? You know, you’re always STUFFING THIS up that kind of critic. I do that with, in sightly different ways. But there’s a lot of my clients actually do that with my eating disorder clients, because the eating disorder, it’s pulled out that my OCD clients so OCD gets pulled out. So I use it a lot. And my inner critic right now saying I must be a one trick pony, basically. Thank you for that. But I use it, I use it on myself really opened up to self compassion, because unquestionable, always ask people about their inner critic, they’re in the passenger on the bus. And I can explain the metaphor a bit more of its useful. I always ask you, what is that? What is the good intention behind that critic? If it had a good intention for you? What would it be? Yeah. And that was for me, like realising that that critic really just wanted me to do a good job, like he was really wanting me to do well. And that was motivating. You know, I wanted to help people in order to feel a sense of accomplishment. And so it was trying to protect me from feeling like a failure as well. And so it allowed me to make a little bit more friend, that part of us, if that makes sense. Makes sense. Settle down, settle down, that kind of threat system. Like every time that voice popped up, you know, just popped up now in, in this conversation here. And like, I can have a bit of a laugh with it so much, but it’s, it’s still bothers me, like, I still have thoughts of that. Like that kind of I’ma shoot therapist, thoughts that sometimes really rattled me. And so it’s not like it’s just fixed from doing this. It’s something that I’ve always kind of like, Oh, hello again. You know, here we are, again. It’s been really helpful.
Hayley: What do you find when that happens? And I will come back to just explaining the metaphor in a minute, if you don’t mind, for the listeners who might not know it, but just you know, when that critic does show up, and you get rattled, what do you do for yourself? In that moment? What do you find helpful.
Jennifer: That’s where learning some of the skills of self compassion has really has helped. I do slow down. I do seek supervision. There’s been a few times in the last couple of years where like, I remember one time sort of over summer, and it was for some reason, I know why I had a client I was really struggling with or who I think quit therapy right before Christmas. And then the passengers called really loud that break and I didn’t have a chance, so I wasn’t seeing clients to kind of regroup. And I reached out to a friend and spoke to, got some supervision. And sort of that’s really important, like I always say, get in supervision. And I did trying to sort of slid a be there without the letting it need to drive a whole bunch of unhelpful behaviour.
Hayley: So that sounds like that connection with yourself. So slowing down and connecting with yourself and also connecting out to other people as well. Yeah. Do you want to just explain briefly the metaphor for anybody that the metaphor of that?
Jennifer: Yeah, because I’m a one trick pony, I know it really well there’s no problem, right. So if you can imagine that you’re the driver of a bus, and this is your bus. So only you can drive it, you set the direction and the speed. And you’re sitting, you know, as you go through life, you’re sitting behind the driver’s seat, trying to drive down the road towards a life that is really fulfilling for you, I kind of sometimes talk about as kind of a little sparkle, you know, like, doing the things that are really important, connecting with people that you love, maybe it’s, you know, rewarding and fulfilling work. feeling like you’re helping others and helping a community feeling safe and secure. You know, all those elements of a life doesn’t matter quite how you’re doing it, most people will have some of those elements in their life. And I’ll usually unpack them, always unpack them with a client. But so we know where we’re trying to hit and, and during your life as you drive along, but your best passengers get on board with you. Now some of those passengers are lovely memories and experiences that you’ve had, maybe you kind of lean over the back of your seat and sort of chat to the passenger. And remember the good times, and those passengers don’t bother you very much, then I sat around, and one passenger has gone on board in your life. And that passenger is this kind of critical voice that we’ve been talking about. So it’s saying things like, whatever that is for my client, but it might be he never get this fried, you, your therapist, in my case, and other therapists would have done a better job than you. If Robin was here, she would fix this person right up. You know, those are the sorts of things that might go on in my head, and it says these things to you. And they’re really hard to hear, you know, they’re really uncomfortable. So, you know, the process that we go through is to sort of pull out that passenger, maybe pop them in the chair, talk about what they look like and, and the key thing with this passenger is not so much the passenger itself although it’s very helpful to separate it from yourself a little. Because it’s nice to kind of note that even when that passenger is talking, there is still a driver there. Because we can forget that think that that passage is voices who we are all we are. But how you respond to that passenger really matters. And the first question I asked my clients is like when it says these things to you, do you believe it? And it’s a surprise, I think, for many people to appreciate that that’s choice. For a start, you know that that voice doesn’t just because it says that it doesn’t have to mean anything, it doesn’t have to be something you have to act on. You don’t have to believe it. And if you believe it, do you do what it says because of course passengers, these passengers are incredibly uncomfortable to have around, like the things that they say make us want to crawl under a seat. And then we feel shame and guilt, a trigger for a lot of sort of deeper feelings a common failure. And I would say that most people respond in one of three ways to the passengers, they call because of course they want to keep it quiet. So you can either do what that passenger says. So when it says like, don’t do that you’re going to fail or it’ll be terrible. That’s a really bad idea for you. Okay, sure. I won’t and I’ll drive, you know, I’ll change my direction according to what you’re telling me to do. Sometimes we get stuck fighting and arguing as a passenger. But in order to fight with a passenger, the first thing you have to do is take a hands off the wheel. And so it’s very hard to make progress down the road.
And the third way I talk about it’s a bit of a blend, maybe it’s both of those options because it’s sort of like hand on the passenger trying to squish it down to shut up leave me alone, you know, one hand on the wheel. I’m gonna force myself down the road here. I’m going to make myself do all these things that are really uncomfortable. And you can make progress down the road that way but it’s exhausting. We spend a lot of time unpacking that. And often people you know, the people listening might have a mix of different ways that they respond to their passenger. You know, if it is this your this report you’re writing, it’s just not good enough, maybe they walk away to try and work on it that day. Or maybe they get it to another yesterday’s I can do this, you know, and tabulate the keys, but they sort of bust just grinds to a halt, you know, they end up checking and rechecking it or overworking it. So there is a way that I and I explained to my clients like what we’re aiming for, is that the technical term might be, you know, mindful awareness or something like that. Or it could be a compassionate awareness as well. It looks like hands on the wheel, eyes on the road. So just refreshing our memory, where are you wanting to hit here, you know. And even though the passenger can get really, really loud, the screaming in your ear that’s never visible for it can be very, very uncomfortable, but it can’t actually hurt you. So the passenger can scream and stomp, and we might talk about it as a toddler, like throwing itself on the floor, banging his fists and demanding, you know, you do what it says. If you have a toddler who’s doing that you don’t then like give them a chocolate bar, right? So you don’t reward that person, you don’t engage in that passage, you just say, thanks. I got this, and keep driving. And sometimes passengers get really loud like that. Sometimes they sort of just go, Okay, sit back and just let let you drive because I don’t know what else to do. You’re not listening to them. We don’t know how the passenger will respond, but we do know they don’t get off the bus. So how you respond to that doesn’t really matter. So that’s kind of the ward like, metaphor that I would use. And then, you know, we can keep like I have, you know, in my supervision, like keep coming back to the passenger again. have a way of understanding that.
Hayley: I think there’s, you say the toddler has a tantrum, you don’t give them the chocolate bar, but I guess sometimes people give them the chocolate bar don’t they?
Jennifer: Yeah what are they gonna expect is gonna happen? It’s gonna happen next time. That’s the first thing it’s going to do is throw itself on the floor because it wants a chocolate bar and this strategy works. Yeah, you reward it, you’re going to get more of it.
Hayley: So it’s risky, isn’t it? Because if we’re not willing to sit with the discomfort, because like you say, it’s uncomfortable. We’re not willing to do that. It’s almost like that passenger jumps in the driver’s seat and says, Well, I’m gonna drive you to perfect land. But guess what, it’s a never ending road. Yeah, you’re gonna be driving and driving driving perfect land, and you’re never ever gonna get up.
Jennifer: Yeah. It’s one thing though. Just to draw a distinction. I will never let in my story, my metaphor, the passenger get in the driver’s seat, because I think it’s always important to remember that you’re still the driver. Absolutely. You’re the one doing what the passenger says. They don’t tell you where to go. It’ll tell you to check all your work 10 times and will tell you they, you know, like just procrastinate and not start, but you still choose. Right?
Hayley: It’s very important, isn’t it? That Yeah, absolutely. That this is the thing is that we do have choice in this. And often the choice is a difficult one. Yeah, it’s an uncomfortable one. But ultimately will lead to be the better choice for you. Yeah, yeah. It’s tough being human. Right. Yeah, it’s great, but really hard. It is. So you know, one of the things in the reason I’ve started the podcast and a lot of the work I do is because it’s helping professionals. Lots of people just don’t seem that great at taking care of themselves. For lots and lots of reasons. Lots of things come up challenges, barriers, histories, stories, passengers on the bus. What do you find are the biggest challenges you face in taking care of yourself as a practitioner?
Jennifer: I think I struggle. I think I struggle with basic self care sometimes in the sense of like, taking breaks, I don’t do that. I see clients back to back for hours. And I’m good at like, at the end of my day, like taking a bit of a breather than going for a walk, which is what I really need to do. I’m just too tired. So and I have these I also struggle with these, you know, really intense periods of self doubt as well. So kind of still struggle with being kind to myself as Well, when I do have a client that I think just not getting anywhere, what am I doing? You know, I even sit with supervisees they’re shocked to learn that I sit with them and go, Oh my god, the supervisee is better at this than I am. Like, they’re doing a really quick job here. Um, and so I struggle with with great with clients going well, but I struggle with clients myself, say, top of the list would be, you know, kind of fundamental, taking breaks your day. managing my diary, there’s so much demand a start fully holding limits, it’s really hard saying no.
Hayley: That’s a really big one for lots of people, particularly at the moment, I think the demand on therapists is massive. And when we struggle with sort of putting those boundaries in place, makes it really hard. What do you think would have been helpful for you to hear when you were a new practitioner starting out?
Jennifer: I think the thing that occurred to me a few years in sort of post towards the end of my registrar programme, was that the self doubt is part of the deal. So I think it was, I was tense church, I would say this, that the work we do is both a privilege and a burden. I think the part of the, the self doubt that you keep, I think as you get more experienced, you know, you have less than fewer of your clients that just scare the shit out of you, like, what am I going to do with this client happens less, but you and you narrow you think it’s great to narrow your scope to make sure that you really, you know, try to try and take on too many different clients. But that you’re going to keep having those moments, I think would have been probably because I think I felt like, there was something wrong with me, and that I was gonna keep, like the defeat this and be more confident, something like that. And that was just wasted.
Really.
I went to a great WorldCom presentation, just specific, like supervision skills. And the best thing about it was I guess what, when you’re a supervisor, you still have doubts about how good you are as a supervisor. I was like, cool, you know, of course, it’s obvious. But I’m so validating, hearing from other like people who, who are advising for many, many years. It’s just another thing to be worried about whether I’m really good enough.
Hayley: Absolutely. I think that that shows up for so many people, doesn’t it and people we wouldn’t expect I remember when I was doing my PhD, and one of my supervisors, you know, had brought in millions of dollars in grants and was on boards of this that and the other and was the most remarkable one. And would have that thing when somebody would contact her like, they want me? To think in some ways when I’ve heard people who were sort of further ahead in their career than me, say things like that. It’s like, oh, okay, well, that’s alright, then. Because if I feeling like that, it’s kind of normal that I wouldn’t be feeling like that as well. Yeah, totally. And I think you know, recognising that we want some self doubt, not the critical kind. Yeah, but we want to have some reflection of, you know, where can I improve my practice? apps? What could I be doing to do this in a, you know, a more effective way? Otherwise, you just be like, meh, I’m alright.
Jennifer: That scares me. People who do that scare me, like, what are you doing? If you’re not reflecting on your practice? I would never want to be like that. So that’s it. That’s it’s not only a we sort of stuck with it, but that it’s necessary. I think that would have been helpful to understand and start that process of coming to terms with that.
Hayley: And just be compassionate with yourself about it. Yeah.
Jennifer: That’s right. It is a privilege and the burden, that we carry that burden that we have to carry that with kindness, to be honest, that that self compassion piece of this is that I can be compassionate to this critical part of ourselves, that I think of all the work I’ve done made the biggest difference. Yeah, I would absolutely agree with that. When I changed my relationship with myself, which was through compassion. My life literally changed. Yeah, my decision making changed. Yeah, yeah, yeah, I find I could do a whole lot more things that scare me now, I still find sticking points Don’t get me wrong. I can just say, yeah, I’ll give that a try. There’s a sort of a just holding it gently because I’m not, I know that I am not going to beat myself up, if I don’t do it really well. wasting a huge amount of time doing that anymore. So I can give things a try. And that’s the whole lot of different projects that are just exploded, you know, in the last 12 months or two years for me.
Hayley: So, you touched on some of the work stuff, I’m just wondering if there was something you would change about the way you work? What would it be? And why?
Jennifer: Actually, scheduling in breaks. I deserve a half an hour lunch break.
It’s that and then I have to start that in January, because it’s too late for this year. It’s not possible so that I’ve started that in January, gonna re juggle my diary to just I will see slightly fewer clients in a day, have a little bit of a break. Just to take my breath, you know, catch my breath. And that I know, I actually work better, but I’m tired of getting into my day just be all out. You know, just there’s nothing left at this point. And I think it’s good for me, it’s not good for my family. So that’s definitely something that’s going to change. I actually made that commitment yesterday, and I sat there for the first three months of breaks actually sheds on scheduling them because I knew that I wouldn’t stick to it, they’re already blocked out.
Hayley: Well, you’ve said it on here now. Out it in the world or will be. That warms my heart. I mean, if anyone’s heard me talk at all, you’ll know my views on taking breaks between clients and having a good break in the day for us to actually take care of ourselves. I mean, it’s so hard to go back to back in this kind of work. Yeah. So I’m thrilled to hear that.
Jennifer: It’s a start. I do know people who spread out, you know, four clients across this eight hour day or something like that, for me, I I feel like that’s a lot of sitting around, like I don’t want to work five days a week. So I like to have long gaps of time on other days. So I’m happy to compress it as the clients I see the three days it’s having a bit more intense, but I do need a break in even if it’s just to like, reschedule a haircut. Take little walk outside, you know? Yeah, just make a call and sort something out for dinner. Just close that little gap in the middle of the today. Just take a breather.
See fewer clients as well.
Hayley: So what would be one piece of advice that you would share with our listeners?
Jennifer: That’s a hard one. Right? I won’t lie. I think it’s always hard to boil things down to one piece of advice. I would say that being kind to yourself is transformational. There’s no benefit to being so hard on yourself. I know. It can feel like you need to do that in order to work hard or do a good job. But you need to brace yourself to keep yourself in line or if you don’t then you’ll be lazy in some way just isn’t true. You have to test it out maybe just to see that it just isn’t true.
Functional analysis of the self critic and really understanding like you were saying, well, what’s the purpose of it? And really looking at you know, this is part of yourself that’s trying to be protective. Hey, it’s just really crap.
It doesn’t actually serve that function it just makes things harder. Yeah, so I do think self kindness is the key. My practice and with my clients and my cell phone that’s probably my biggest area of development still to do. Like it’s still something I want to learn more about. I know that my clients benefit when we do that work, and what I’d like to be take further. So I think, start by applying yourself.
Hayley: Absolutely. So can you tell us a bit about any current projects that you’re working on? And perhaps tell us about your upcoming book?
Jennifer: So I have some really cool projects. A big one that’s coming up in October is I’m running a workshop for praxis cet. So unpacking perfectionism. So that’s four times two hours. And workshops that have I think it’s, it’ll be scheduled on Friday mornings for those of us in Australia, so I think first afternoons in the US, we’re really excited about that. And that’ll be really experiential. You know, I always put my heart and soul into into any workshops that I do. And then I’ve got the book coming out in on the first of December. So that’s really exciting. I’ve been writing some blogs and like sort of trying to put some more thoughts together, I’ll be recording a bunch of the mindfulness activities there in the fall called the recording that there’s an activity that always scares me recording myself. So Oh, yeah. So there’s a little bit of procrastination going on with that in the moment. I’m gonna get there. The book comes out. It’s the AC workbook for perfectionism, with new Harbinger. And I’ve integrated ACT skills with some self compassion, focus, therapy, these skills in there. And really, again, I unpacked what perfectionism is fear of failure and criticism. The whole passages of the bus metaphor is in there as like an interactive exercise that you work through, which I love, like, I think chapter seven, which has it, it just flows so easily. It just flowed to ride it was really enjoyable as probably this is probably my favourite chapter chapter six. So compassion is also like a fav. I’m not to pick favourites, and like children, each chapter, I should pick favourites. But I’m really, like, keen to, for people to get into their senses that have talked to them about it, and help. And I’m looking to next year and you know, what else could I put online? That’s sort of what little thought bubbles going at the moment that people could work through in a self paced kind of way to support because it’s, it is hard to say, to get in to see someone at the moment. So what could people be doing in the meantime, be really good to sort of think about? And yeah, so that’s it, the best place to go is to go to my website, which is just jenniferkemp.com.au, and you can if you want to, if you want to know more, sign up for a mailing list there. Then each time I upload something onto the website, I send out an email. And that helps.
Hayley: I think you’ve sent me some details. I’ll pop those on show now. Sounds exciting. Good on you like writing is a challenging process.
And the course sounds good as well. October is the course?
Jennifer: It is for I think it starts on October the seventh in USA so that would be the 8th here. You can find all the details on the Praxis CET website. Think it’s praxiscet.com.
Hayley: So before we finish up, I’m going to ask you what I’ve been asking everybody is if you could meet your 20 years from now self, what do you think your future self would say to you?
Jennifer: I would like to think that my future self will be proud of me. That would be really encouraging that is this part of me that so i will be doing better at this or doing that or that of course they could see that I was really on a good path. I think that I’m making progress. So I’d like to think that that future self would be super, super proud of mea and encourage me to keep going, try new things and take on some more risks. putting it out there saying I really love I think like you Haley really love working with other professionals and And really love, like helping the helpers. I think that’s a great, great place to work in. So really excited to keep exploring that space.
Hayley: Fantastic. Thank you so much. It’s been really interesting, I think it’s really helpful. I think there’s lots of people that will be able to relate to what you’ve talked about. And hopefully they’ll, you know, be able to get hold of your book and do your course as well, which will probably be very helpful not only for working with clients, but also like I say, turning it inward for ourselves, and learning a lot of these skills for ourselves is so important. Yeah, yeah. It’s been a pleasure.
Jennifer: Oh, it’s been really fun. Yeah, I absolutely loved it. Thanks so much for having me.
Hayley: Pleasure. See you. Thank you for sharing this time with me today. I hope your time here was helpful and supportive. If there has been something in this episode that you have found helpful, I invite you to share it with another person you think might benefit. I’d also love it if you’d like to leave a review wherever you tune in. Reviews really helped to increase awareness of podcasts, meaning I can spread helpful information more widely. All reviews are welcome and much appreciated. As I know they take time out of your day. If you’d like to be notified when the next episode airs, please use the link in the show notes to join my mailing list. Music and editing by Nyssa Ray thanks nessa I wish you all well in your relationship with yourself. And may you go well and go gently.
You can find Jennifer’s latest thinking and resources at www.jenniferkemp.com.au
Jennifer’s course is available in October via https://www.praxiscet.com/events/unpacking-perfectionism-oct-2021/
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