Episode #2 – Voices From the Chair with Dr Jacques Rizk
In this episode, I have an incredible chat with Dr Jacques Rizk. Jacques is a Melbourne based senior clinical psychologist who works in private practice as a clinician and supervisor, and in the community as a consultant and trainer.
Hayley: Hi This is Welcome to Self™, Caring for the Human in the Therapist Chair and I’m your host Dr Hayley D Quinn, fellow human, clinical psychologist, supervisor and trainer.
Welcome to Self™ is a place where you can come and learn ways to elevate your own care and compassion. A place to rest, be soothed and at times maybe gently challenged to think about yourself and your practice. A place to remember that you are human first and choose the helping profession as just one of the roles in your life. My aim is that this is a place of soothing, comfort, nourishment, growth and nurture. A place where you can also welcome Your Self.
Welcome to the new episode. I’m really thrilled to introduce my guest and dear friend, Dr Jacques Rizk. Jacques is a Melbourne based senior clinical psychologist who works in private practice as a clinician and supervisor, and in the community as a consultant and trainer. He has a special interest in the mental health of people who identify as lesbian, gay, bisexual, transgender, queer, intersex, asexual, pansexual, and other diversities (LGBTQIAP+). In private practice, he sees adolescents, adults, families and couples from all parts of the rainbow. As a clinical supervisor and trainer, he provides professional development to clinicians, new to working with LGBTQIA+ people. He also works as a consultant beyond clinical settings, bringing his experience and knowledge to workplaces, schools, places of worship, and other groups and communities. As well as this, he is one of life’s wonderful human beings, and a really funny guy. It is my absolute pleasure to welcome my dear friend, and old uni roommate to Welcome to Self™. I hope you enjoy him as much as I do.
Hayley: Hey Jacques, it’s an absolute pleasure to have you as my first guest on the Welcome to Self™, Caring for the Human in the Therapist Chair podcast Welcome.
Jacques: Thank you. Thank you for having me.
Hayley: Absolute pleasure. This is really exciting. So Jacques, can you start by telling us a little bit about yourself, your journey into psychology, and what you do now?
Jacques: Sure, a little bit about myself, that’s a bit daunting. So I’ve been working as a psychologist since 2010 but before that I worked also as a counsellor at Kids HelpLine and Parentline, I started that in 2001 or 2002, so a long time ago now, and, yeah, I found that that sort of working with a broad different range of people was really really enjoyable and then from there, I wanted to work more specifically with different groups when I became a psychologist and I put the word out there that as a gay man myself I’m interested in working with a whole range of the whole rainbow acronym LGBTIQAP+ people. And what I found was I got a lot more referrals in that kind of space from GPs in my local area, particularly around gender related things, and that’s just become more and more the group that I work with. So these days it’s 85% of my clients would fall somewhere in that rainbow, And of them three quarters, would be seeing me for gender related matters right from, you know there’s something a little bit different for me with my gender, through to I know who I am what do I do about it through to, you know, that my identity when it comes to my gender is something that I’ve already affirmed, and I just want to see a therapist, that’s got that sort of literacy in the background but that’s not why I’m here. So that’s become kind of my main thing. I also do a lot of teaching and training and supervising in that space, which I really really love too. And yeah, so that’s pretty much how I spend my time across those three things, like working in private practice and supervising and training, and also some kind of working in schools and advocacy stuff in the community. A little bit about myself really outside of that, that keeps me pretty busy. I guess why we’re here to talk about all this is how, how I am out of that. Yeah, I would describe myself, these days as like part man, part, internet. I spend a lot of time online. Looking at memes and exploring, I don’t know I just like novelty I like learning new things I like poking around in weird different corners of ways people live, so I’m always online looking at kind of new, new stuff, different songs, different, different ways of people living, so I love that kind of thing. And, yeah, other bits and pieces, you know, I guess we’ll get into that a little bit later.
Hayley: So you’ve been doing this for a long time, your experience stretches back a while. And you obviously have some diversity in your work as well, which is great. I think that can always be really helpful for people can’t it. You work in a niche area, one that comes with a lot of client distress, and potential high risk to client safety unfortunately. How do you manage this for yourself? What sort of things do you find most helpful? I know you’ve sort of spoken about the part man, part internet, I love that, and I think many of us who know you benefit from your research into funny memes and they’re always really appreciated by everybody. But what do you do to take care of yourself and what’s your favourite way of kind of nurturing yourself?
Jacques: Well I guess I’ll start from the outset by saying I’m certainly, you know, no guru on this, I really don’t find it a natural thing and maybe a better way of putting it as I’m, it’s something I have to be really intentional about, and my life is not organized in such a way that naturally lends itself to that kind of really keeping things in balance and looking after myself so I find that I really have to be conscious about it and then the way I live my life means that often I’m not. So, yeah, so that, I think, how I do it is really trying to, and increasingly so, I mean, almost 20 years into it. I’m really recognizing the importance of having a me outside of work. And the thing is, I love my work so much that, as I said to my partner a long time ago, like I feel like when I’ve had a full day with clients sometimes my friends and family and me get the leftovers. And I really don’t want that to be the case, you know. So I do try and look after myself outside of that, and, particularly because it is kind of the group I work with, the mental health stats and suicide risk and all that is really quite intense. So how I do that would be like, mainly, connecting with people, and I know that, I guess, keeping, like I mentioned those three different kinds of domains that I work in, a private practice, community advocacy and supervising and training and I find that is a really really good way for me to ensure that I’ve got a balance, as good as I can without being overwhelmed, too much by the risk and the emotional demand. And, yeah and then in terms of like, this might sound, well I know it won’t sound silly but maybe a bit surprising but like I really, if I, if I’ve had a tough day. My favourite thing to do is I like to go for a walk to a cinema about 10 minutes away from here and I don’t really care what I see even, it’s more like, I love going on my own to see a movie, and it’s more about consuming my body weight in popcorn. To be honest, it’s just about, you know, just sitting there, and not really having to do any kind of active work and just passively enjoying a, you know, stupid movie and forget, and having time for me.
Hayley: Sounds wonderful. I’m just wondering as you’re saying that. How has Covid impacted. I guess your work but also that ability to take care of yourself, particularly in that way that you really enjoy, by sort of taking yourself off to the cinema, because obviously you’re based in Melbourne, and you guys have had it really tough down there.
Jacques: Absolutely. I think that the, again it might sound, maybe a bit silly or something but it was really, other than missing most of my friendship group, and my social connections. I almost had to like grieve not being able to go to the movies, and do all of those things that I would normally rely on to keep me well. And, I mean we were in lockdown for over four months so it was hard going and yeah I remember saying a number of times like the first thing I’m going to do and things open back up is forget, you know, flying to Queensland to see friends and family, the first thing I’m going to do is actually go to the movies and, yeah, it was really something that I recognized as an important thing to have something completely indulgent outside of myself that took me out of these four walls that I’d lost during that time, and just more broadly I think Covid was kind of a triple whammy really, like it was more need from others, like the distress was higher, and the volume of clients as well really seeking help really increased as well, new referrals as well as people coming back out of the woodwork, seeking some help. And then also the access to support just like I was noticing for them it was even more so, often times. So trying to do things that would help normally like behavioural activation for depression or exposure for anxiety. We were really limited with a, you know, curfew and only a number of reasons to leave the house and all of that, so it was a really, really tough time in terms of having the same access to clinical resources.
Hayley: Yeah I think it’s really impacted people in such different ways hasn’t it and I think you know the increase in distress and demand is, we’re seeing that everywhere. And no doubt overseas as well, not just in Australia.
Jacques: Absolutely, and it was like every week would be a new way, just when I thought I’d kind of heard, you know, like an exhaustive list of all the creative ways Covid was getting under people’s skin, there’d be a new thing I never would have thought of, you know. Yeah, full on.
Hayley: I think one of the things, you know, that I found for myself and other therapists that I’ve spoken to is, it’s also one of those times when what your clients are talking about, you’re experiencing as well.
Jacques: Absolutely.
Hayley: Often times our clients’ stories are not our stories, but with Covid, I think that’s really impacted sort of listening to clients.
Jacques: I couldn’t agree with you more. Absolutely, yeah, yeah, and even like, I read this thing early on in Covid about boundaries, and that it was important to have boundaries even with ourselves during Covid in terms of how we set limits on the thoughts that we indulge in, and other things too. Not just boundaries with, you know, self care and the demands we allow others to put on us, but my point being that, in terms of the impact of Covid, it was in a lot of ways an erosion of boundaries I think including the capacity to separate ourselves from our clients stories, the way we normally do. So yeah, I couldn’t agree more.
Hayley: I think that’s a beautiful way of putting it actually, an erosion of the boundaries. I think that’s exactly what it’s been hasn’t it. So, what do you find are your biggest challenges, I mean, you said that self care doesn’t necessarily come naturally and I think that’s for most of us, and that it has to be very intentional which I’d absolutely agree on. So, what do you think are the biggest challenges that you face in taking care of yourself as a practitioner?
Jacques: I thought about this and I think you know that very distinct feeling of being a complete hypocrite? Yeah, so sitting across from someone sort of, you know, having had half the sleep I should, you know sitting in a very, you know, the end of a very sedentary day talking to them about, you know, sleep hygiene and lifestyle factors. I think that really basic stuff, it’s humbling. I think as a clinician to really realize over and over again just the potential impact in both directions of that stuff, you know, staying socially connected, sleep hygiene, exercise, diet, all of that, and that stuff particularly I think especially when things are tough. My nature personally is to kind of feel like that toughness of life, permits me to not adult too much in my time outside of that and therefore, the best way to not adult too much is yeah I’ll stay up a bit later, I’ll have a self second helping of whatever, and so on. So, the lifestyle stuff just remaining kind of disciplined in a healthy way, in a balanced way as well not being a perfectionist, though, I struggle with that. And then the other thing, because I think the flip side, like what I’ve learned how to do well and I really, you know, I can see where I started and where I am now with this is, I think I am a lot more compassionate and gentle with myself, like I can’t remember the last time I judged myself for a thought I had or a feeling I had, and that’s the opposite of how it was, you know, 20 years ago. But then I still kind of could get a lot better at sort of asking for help, I’m still quite, you know, independent to a fault, so I think that’s another thing with self care in particular, I would encourage others to really reach out during times of struggle, whereas I tend to go in and try to do it on my own. And it’s it’s good that it’s no longer in a harsh way, but it’s just kind of like an unhelpful habit.
Hayley: Yeah so if we think about that in terms of the flows of compassion. I mean, anybody that knows you, knows that you have no issue with compassion outward to others, at all. And it sounds like you’ve really developed a nice level of self compassion. And perhaps the flow that’s a little bit more tricky for you is the receiving compassion from others, that being able to reach out when you could really do with that help, and I think you know, often times, we’ll talk about self compassion being the hardest. And my experience from, you know, for myself and talking to other people is often compassion from others can be the really tricky one for us, particularly as helping professionals when we’re so used to it flowing out.
Jacques: Absolutely, yeah, yeah, I’m out of my comfort zone when I’m the one putting my hand up for help. Totally. And, yeah, yeah, it’s a good way of putting it, yeah it is it’s allowing compassion to come to me.
Hayley: I’m sure there’d be plenty of people listening that could relate to that. One of the things I wonder is what are some of the things you talk to your clients about that you don’t use for yourself, like the helpful things. But if you reflected now you might realize, actually, that could be helpful for me as well?
Jacques: I think something that, again, 20 years ago, maybe I could see I used to do a lot more which was good for me, and modern life, as well as my own kind of behaviours have eroded that, that capacity I think over time is sitting with things, I used to really, you know, I know we’re all hooked to our devices and things but really like it’s those two or three minutes that, you know, my partner has gone to the bathroom or whatever where I would normally pull out my phone out of habit, where I used to like, I used to go camping in nature for six days at a time and enjoy being completely disconnected, I used to leave my, you know, brick of a phone in the glove box and just sit there and when it would get dark, that was as long as I could read for and then at night I was sitting with my own thoughts and I’ve benefited from that, it was, it was hard at times but I’ve, I reckon I’d last two hours now, doing that. So, I think that’s something that I, to kind of really accompany myself and be present with myself, is something I’ve fallen out of habit with, it’s not that I can’t do it or don’t like what’s there, it’s just almost too easy not to. And I think I’m missing a resource by
not doing that more.
Hayley: Yeah. Gosh, I mean the technology these days it’s so easy isn’t it to, to get drawn back into it all the time, and actually having time to just be still with ourselves seems so much harder than picking up the phone and often because being with ourselves is harder isn’t it.It brings us into contact with things that perhaps are difficult whether that’s stuff that shows up in your work or whether that’s stuff that’s showing up in your personal life.
Jacques: Totally.
Hayley: Yeah, sounds wonderful, just going out into nature. No technology, a good book.
Jacques: Yeah, yeah well and I remember the hard parts of that too, like sometimes I’d come home from that six day thing feeling like I’d really almost gone through some kind of endurance test, but always it was I benefited from it, you know, and I think now I’d approach it in a gentler way too, but I definitely know that there was, I just remember like being absorbed absolutely immersed, just looking out at the ocean or up at the sky. I can’t remember the last time I did that, for you know a prolonged amount of time, and I think that’s really good for us.
Hayley: Absolutely. Human beings, not human doings right.
Jacques: Yes, yes, yes totally, again stuff that falls out of our mouths with clients, but something that I don’t do enough of.
Hayley: So, I’m wondering what has been the best piece of advice you have ever been given regarding navigating being a helping professional? My recollection, you and I were at university together, my recollection of university was that we were told to take care of ourselves, that it was important, but then that’s kind of where it ended, and then it was sort of being, you know, laid on with multiple assignments, client to see and things to do, and group work to do and navigate all that. And there wasn’t really a lot, dedicated to what taking care of yourself as a health professional meant. I have hope that that’s different at university now but who knows. So I’m wondering what has been the best kind of piece of advice that perhaps you got whilst you were there or from somebody else, on how to navigate this?
Jacques: So yeah I was reflecting on this and it was actually not like it wasn’t a lecturer or anyone or supervisor that gave me the best advice, it was actually my own therapist because I am a big believer in getting your own therapy too, and having the same kind of, you know, the typical drive that gets you into post grad uni also means you tend to, you know, struggle with, you know, being too hard on yourself and having those higher standards and whatever. So, something that really has helped me is my therapist said to me once. Jacques always do your best, but remember that doing your best means leaving enough in the tank to do your best tomorrow. And I think that’s the best advice, I’ve being given really in terms of the importance of, it’s just such a beautiful and succinct way of saying so much about maintenance, about self care is actually caring for others and caring for others is possible only if you are pacing yourself in a way that’s sustainable. So, I’ve gotten a lot of mileage out of that one line, really have.
Hayley: Oh it’s beautiful I love it. I love it, do your best but leave enough in the tank to do your best again tomorrow. Yeah, that’s beautiful.
Jacques: That is doing your best, right.
Hayley: Yeah. And in doing our best, we need to do our best for ourselves as well, you said early on that, you know you’d recognize that your friends and your partner and yourself got the leftovers, which on some days might be really measly leftovers, hey, if any leftovers. So, you know, when we think about work is one aspect of our life and if it takes everything we’ve got. What does that mean for the other aspects of our lives?
Jacques: Yeah, it really struck me when a cousin of mine actually, she said to me, and it blew me away that this was her experience of me, she said you never take anything seriously you’re always joking. And I think of myself as a really serious person, and I am all day. And I guess I was you know, going to the other end of that spectrum. And I mean that’s fine, but to have to base a whole relationship with someone around humor, I can understand why she was kind of you know lamenting that a little bit. And yeah, so I think it is very serious and demanding work that we do, and again I really appreciate the, to do this well, it means being able to do it well tomorrow and that means having a life outside of work that I’m just as dedicated to nurturing and growing.
Hayley: Yeah, to put it in context a little bit for people listening I have to say, you are actually one of the funniest people I’ve ever met in my life. And, you know, I, you know before we were recording this, I think I’d said how are we not going to crack up through this interview because your wit and your humor is fantastic, and I think anybody that knows you would attest to this that you are a very funny guy.
Jacques: Yeah, and it’s, it’s a great, I mean I’m so glad I am I, you know, life, that life can be very serious and to be humorous about it really helps, I think. But, yeah, and I don’t want to get rid of that I love that part of me but, yeah, when it’s a defense against anything or when that’s all I’m capable of is to kind of superficially, hilariously but superficially relate to things and yeah that’s a sign for me that I’m out of balance.
Hayley: Yeah, so letting people see all of who you are, the different facets of your personality is an indicator for you that you’re actually managing things better?
Jacques: Yeah, that I have enough left in me to sit with someone outside of my work, and, you know, allow them to be in pain and to sit with that pain rather than trying to lighten it or whatever. Yeah.
Hayley: I think that can be a really good thing isn’t it, to keep an eye on what are our little flags. I’d said previously that, for me, when self doubt and self criticism starts to sneak in, then I know that I’m, I need to tune in and check what’s going on because whilst I used to be very very self critical. I’m much more self compassionate nowadays so if the self critic is showing up, it’s kind of my thing of like, hmm, okay what what’s going on with me. So for you if you’re kind of like being funny, all of the time outside of work, it’s like, mmm okay, what am I staying away from, what’s going on for me? So, I think just notice the our own little red flags.
Jacques: Absolutely. And I think like, often times, I think I would otherwise miss it if I went with just the classical kind of definition of burnout for psychologists, which is usually, we recognize that when our performance changes right or when our, our work, our attitude to work changes. For me, I find that that, like, for whatever reason, for better or worse, that’s the bit that I think suffers the least, but it is my personal life, that gets the leftovers and so on. So that’s what I need to keep an eye out for rather than I was a bit short with that client or I was a bit less patient with their struggle or whatever. For me yeah, it’s really about, okay, well works still ticking along but outside of work, it’s been, you know, four days since I, you know, connected to people, really that kind of thing.
Hayley: Yeah, that’s a really good point that doesn’t look the same for everybody, I think we need to be very careful of just seeing that there’s some kind of list that you can tick off and go oh no I’m good, or some kind of prescription for self care, that’s going to work for everyone because I, I personally don’t believe that’s the way it is at all. I think you make a really good point there. So can you tell us a little bit about any current projects you’ve got going on? What sort of stuff, are you doing, you said you do training outside of your work?
Jacques: Yeah, it’s actually a, this year has been an absolute explosion of that part of my, my professional life. So, next weekend, I’m running a two day workshop for psychologists and other mental health professionals, hosted by the, the APS clinical College, and that’s really cool, so that two days is on working with that whole spectrum, that whole rainbow. And so I’m really really happy to be doing that, I’m excited about that, it’s based in Melbourne, but also this year, I’ve, so I’ve had this ongoing relationship with one school that had invited me and it’s a religious school down here in Melbourne and they invited me in. They recognized that they needed some upskilling and how to be more inclusive of their, their transgender students and to their credit, they have over the last four years, really taken that on, and it’s been this wonderful cultural change, that’s been schoolwide and so other schools have caught wind of this and now I’m working with four major schools, each of them with four or five campuses, spread across the place all over the country. And I just, again, it’s, it’s really really a great way for me to be well but so meaningful as well, to be working at the preventative end. That’s really exciting to me, and oh my god, I went into a school and I’ve been for the last four years working with the executives, right down to the staff but I hadn’t made my way down yet to working with the kids themselves, and this year I got that opportunity, and it, it was just so inspiring to sit in this room with 40 queer kids talking about how they want the school to change and what they need from the school in order to change and oh my god, I can’t imagine, when I was in year nine looking the vice principal in the face and saying, Why are you teaching me only about heterosexual sex and sex ed, that’s not the kind of sex, I’m going to have. So, you know, what about me? So that was really cool.
Hayley: That’s fantastic and for the people listening, Jacques and I are actually meeting on Zoom, and Jacques when you talk about this your face just lights up, like I can see that energy in you when you’re talking about this. I can only imagine that, like you said, that’s actually really helpful for you as well in terms of your work, how rewarding that must feel.
Jacques: Yeah, it’s really cool, really, really cool and there’s so many layers to that you know like I, I can’t go back in time and give, you know high school age Jacques that kind of, you know school environment but it’s so amazing to be part of that for this generation, you know, and to be invited in by church communities and religious schools and, you know, other workplaces is a really, it is the stuff that makes me light up and energizes with me.
Hayley: It’s Brilliant. You’re amazing. I can’t imagine anybody better to do that work actually. You’re phenomenal.
Jacques: Thanks so much.
Hayley: And, you know, if any of our listeners have the opportunity to train with you, I would highly recommend that, you’re an amazing, engaging and funny trainer, And we should probably say that this might be aired after the training that you just mentioned before, so they might have missed that, but to look out for opportunities to train with you because not only are you really knowledgeable in this but it’s a joy, kind of learning from you because
Jacques: Thank you.
Hayley” It’s fun. Yeah fantastic.
Jacques: Thanks so much.
Hayley: So, if there was one thing that you would change about the way you work. Or maybe there’s more than one thing, but if there was something that you would change about the way you work, what would that be and why?
Jacques: I’ve been thinking about this as well, and it’s bigger than, than work but it shows up as kind of my, I think my biggest challenge at work as well. In a way, and it’s, I’ve, I’ve always kind of relieved my stress by getting to the bottom of my list of things to do, kind of thing, so I will have a break when I’m done. When I’m done with all the things, and once I finally finish you know this report which is stressing me out, then I’ll be able to kind of relax again. And that formula of stress release comes when you’ve done the thing, really isn’t working for me anymore. There, it’s a bottomless list, and if I, if, if I’m really caught up in my inbox being at zero unread emails, and all of that, as when I can finally, you know, psychologically chill, then that’s a really tense way to be, and it is how I relate to stress. So I really, I am really cognizant of that and working on finding, and it’s a new skill like, I guess, I have been very competent and very able to kind of deal with things in that way, to this point, but now that I’m doing all of these other things it’s just it’s an endless list and it really stresses me out so I need to find a way for it to not stress me out with the list still existing and I think that’s just how, how it’s got to be and I’m still working my way through that, how to do that in a way that works for me, but that’s, that’s what I’m wanting to change.
Hayley: I think that sounds really wise because it sounds like your work is, is actually dictating your care schedule.
No. Mmmm bit of a theme there right.
Hayley: I think there’ll be lots of people that can relate to this. Once I’ve done this or once I’ve taken care of that other person or once I’ve got all my letters done or once I’ve you know, got the emails responded to. Sometimes actually taking some time and restoring means we can go back and do that, sometimes more productively than we might have if we’re just trying to get through when we’re exhausted as well.
Jacques: Yep, yep. And I think again it’s that erosion of boundaries you know like, if I worked a job that was like nine to five and then I leave it at work and I come home then, and there’s no access to it and that’s it until the next day, but I know a lot of other professions and a lot of other work doesn’t work that way either and I think that to me is the challenge, work finishes when I’m done with the tasks and there’s always tasks, so finding a way to kind of leave it where it’s at, and then switch gears is really important.
Hayley: Yeah absolutely. So, what would be one piece of advice that you would share with the listeners.
Jacques: Um, well, I don’t have one of my own, but something that, like, something I heard, that’s been really really really profound actually for me to come back to and it’s such a simple thing but really, like a balm to a sore for me. I’ve just gotten into, people have been talking about it for the last year, and I finally got around to watching CouplesTherapy. If you haven’t watched it, it’s amazing. And the therapist in one of the episodes, first episode I think, she went to her clinical advisor her supervisor, and something the supervisor said just was really clarifying for me, it again, anyway I’ll get on with it, she said, our job as therapists, is to deepen the client’s understanding of their own dilemma, no more no less. And I think I get caught up in needing it to be more and getting caught up in the sense of urgency and pressure for clients sometimes and sometimes its explicit pressure put on us to do more and sometimes it’s the systems like you know, you’ve got X number of sessions under Medicare rebates and whatever, so I can get caught up in, it’s not enough, but their life is so complex, that I had one hour with them per fortnight or whatever, so, to just come back to that and I can do that, I can help deepen their understanding of their own dilemma and I think it’s good for us to as clinicians to remember the power of that, that, that’s our job we will never be able to, to solve our clients problems, their lives are way more complex but what we can do within our means is to help them understand their lives.
Hayley: I think that’s beautiful. And I think like you say it’s so easy to get caught up in wanting to do more, wanting to be more, wanting to sort everything out, and we do only see these people for short times of their life. Say one hour maybe a fortnight so dialling down the pressure on ourselves.
Jacques: Yeah, and I just like that, that, I mean, I think we forget that that’s a valued skill set just active listening and deepening a client’s understanding by being present with them and really attuning in, I think I know for me I feel like all of the other skills that we have for therapy, delivery skills, sometimes I forget that the importance of just that one.
Hayley: And I might add as well the importance of doing that for ourselves, just being with ourselves and deepening our own understanding of ourselves as well.
Jacques: Yeah, goes back to that sitting with myself, you know, and no need for it to be any other way, just deepen it.
Hayley: So, this is a question that I’m going to ask people that come on. If you could meet your 20 years from now self. What do you think your future self would say to you.
Jacques: I’m so glad that you forwarded these questions ahead of time because this one stumped me. I thought, I thought, what could I possibly say in that would, you know, clearly it would be something profound. We know that.
Hayley: Of course
Jacques: But you know, where I arrived and I’m quite happy with my answer. I thought, I hoped that I’d be coming back from the future to thank present day me for setting off on this direction, to really stay committed to being that human in the chair, really, that would be so like, that’s a job well done if in 20 years I can look back and go, yeah I really saw the importance of that, that there is more to me than that and in fact, when I‘m attuned to there being more to me then that makes me better in the chair as well. And then I stuck to that I would be so happy with that.
Jacques: Oh that’s making me feel emotional. That’s so beautiful. And I hope both are 20 years from now selves, we’ll sit and talk about this topic.
Jacques: I think there’s a good chance of that.
Hayley: I think there is. Finally, if people need to find out more about you. Where can they find you and your work?
Jacques: Probably my website at the moment is a good central hub, so heartmatterspsychology.com Heart as in organ. So yeah, that would be the best sort of go to place and they can check out a bit about me there too.
Hayley: And I’ll put that in the show notes as well, put a link to your website. It’s been an absolute pleasure, you and I spent, you know, four years sharing an office together and it’s just been so wonderful for me to have you as my first guest on my first ever podcast.
Jacques: It’s really been a pleasure for me too, yeah, no my pleasure. If only our 2008 selves could see this right.
Hayley: Absolutely maybe we should go and thank them for stepping on the path that we are now on.
Jacques: Amen to that.
Hayley: Thank you so much.
Jacques: My pleasure. Thanks
Hayley: Thank you for sharing this time with me today, I hope your time here was helpful and supportive. If there has been something in this episode that you have found helpful, I invite you to share it with another person you think might benefit. I’d also love it if you would like to leave a review wherever you tune in. Reviews really help to increase awareness of podcasts, meaning I can spread helpful information more widely. All reviews are welcome and much appreciated as I know they take time out of your day. If you’d like to be notified when the next episode airs, please use the link in the show notes to join my mailing list. Music and editing by Nyssa Ray, thanks Nyssa. I wish you all well in your relationship with Your Self and may you go well and go gently.
To find out more about Jacques and his work, please go to www.heartmatterspsychology.com
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