Episode #25 Compassionate Mind Training

Hi, this is Welcome to Self ™ Caring for the Human in the Therapist Chair, and I’m your host, Dr. Hayley D Quinn, fellow human, clinical psychologist, supervisor and trainer. Welcome to Self ™ is a place where you can come and learn ways to elevate your own care and compassion. A place to rest, be soothed, and at times maybe gently challenged to think about yourself and your practice. A place to remember that you are human first, choose the helping profession is just one of the roles in your life. My aim is that this is a place of soothing, comfort, nourishment, growth and nurture. A place where you can also welcome your self.

Hi and welcome to another episode. I’d like to take a moment of gratitude for Belinda Jade who sent me a message to say,

“Thank you for another amazing episode, number 20. I just got in the car after a long day and difficult last session and decided to have a little scroll of Facebook before driving home to the evening routine – and up pops your post about when the session is tricky. Just what I needed. Perfect timing and your final words – thank you. I really, really appreciate your podcasts.”.

Hayley Quinn

Thank you so much, Belinda. I always appreciate the time it takes to give feedback and I love reading all the comments from listeners. If you’re ever in doubt I’d want to hear from you, I assure you I do, it really helps me stay inspired.

I’m excited to introduce you to my next guest, Dr Chris Irons. Chris is a clinical psychologist, researcher, writer and trainer specialising in Compassion Focused Therapy. He is co-director of Balanced Minds, a London based organisation providing compassion-focused psychological interventions for individuals and organisations. He is also co-director of BalO, a company focusing on bringing greater compassion and balance to all levels of organisations. Chris works with Compassionate Mind Foundation, and as a Visiting Lecturer at University College London (UCL).

For over 20 years, Chris has worked with Professor Paul Gilbert and other colleagues on research and clinical developments linked to CFT. He was involved in some of the initial research papers and book chapters on CFT (Gilbert & Irons, 2004, 2005), and has published many articles and book chapters on compassion, attachment, shame and self-criticism. He has authored five books, including ‘The Compassionate Mind Workbook’ (with Dr Elaine Beaumont) and ‘CFT from the Inside Out’ (with Russell Kolts, James Bennett-Levy and Tobyn Bell), and ‘The Compassionate Mind Approach for Difficult Emotions’. Alongside Elaine Beaumont, he recently released the first CFT based app called ‘The Self Compassion App’. If you haven’t already also check out the previous episode with Dr Elaine Beaumont on Cultivating Kindness where she also talks more about the new app.

Chris regularly provides CFT teaching, training, workshops and retreats across the world and if you ever get the opportunity to train with him, I would highly recommend it. Chris is an experienced clinician, having worked in the NHS and in independent practice for many years. He has recently been leading on the development of compassion based approaches for the general public, and in integrating these approaches in organisations.

As well as being very accomplished, Chris is a really lovely human being and it is my absolute pleasure to welcome him on to the podcast. I really enjoyed chatting with Chris and I hope you really enjoy the episode.

Hi, Chris, thank you so much for coming on the podcast. It’s an absolute pleasure for me. I remember meeting you back in London at one of the compassionate mind foundation conferences. And I’ve also had the privilege of actually doing training with you, which has been fantastic. So I’m really excited to have you on. Thank you for zooming in from Portugal in your morning.

Chris Irons

Thank you so much for having me, Haley. It’s wonderful to be here. And yeah, looking forward to spending some time with you and hopefully spending some time face to face with you in the future as well.

Hayley Quinn

Yes, well, I’ll be at the conference in October if you’re going to be there so that’ll be good.

Chris Irons

A good immediate one later on in the year to be able to hang out again.

Hayley Quinn

Fantastic. So it would be lovely for the listeners to get Today, you’re a little bit better. So you want to start with telling us a little bit about yourself and what it was that drew you to a career in psychology?

Chris Irons

Yeah, so, so obviously, my name is Chris. I’m a clinical psychologist, and I guess, a part time academic. And, yeah, what what’s sort of brought me to psychology, like a number of different things, really, there’s a lot of family stuff, I guess, like I was lucky, I would say, I was lucky to be raised in a family where lots of people were doing sort of caring roles one way or another. So both my parents are teachers, lots of family members were either teachers or social workers. My grandfather on my dad’s side, was the first black magistrate in the UK and got an OBE for his work on race relations back in 1977, I think he got his OBE. So his whole career basically was fighting for equality of people from the Caribbean, and in fallen India and Pakistan, who were being treated pretty poorly in the UK when they first came across after the war. So I kind of was raised hearing and seeing people helping others really. And I remember my grandfather telling me a lot about his experiences of coming to the country and settling in Nottingham in 1945, and his experiences of racism, but also great kindness and care. And so it’s very inspirational to kind of hear these people who I looked up to who are massive inspirational forces for me, you know, doing caring things, but also just talking about human beings and I guess human psychology and, and I guess, in a way, the contrast between people who could be really kind and caring and people who could be very harmful and cruel and rejecting and so yeah, I guess I sort of had a milieu in a way of interest. Stimulated from that, then the direct thing that took me into psychology was when I was I was studying psychology as an undergrad. But I, I did a four year degree in which the third year I had to do a sort of a placement year in industry or in the NHS. And it’s fair to say that I was enjoying University a little bit too much and with you too many drinks in the student union and so on. And I kind of miss the deadline for it. So I missed all the adverts that they had up in Parliament, I’d completely just screwed up. But anyway, I was back in the summer holidays back in Nottingham, and round, a good friend of mines. And I was talking to him about this messed up and I’m having to scramble around trying to find a placement now. And his dad was home from work. His dad was a GP in Nottingham and overheard me talking about this and said, Well, would you like me to have a look to see if there’s any psychologists that I could recommend here in Nottingham? I didn’t think any more of it and then got a phone call from him a couple of weeks later say look, I’ve never met this guy. But this is Professor in Darby called Paul Gilbert. Maybe you could write him a letter. So basically how I’ve ended up doing a lot of CFT stuff is through serendipity really, through me being a bit lazy and hung over. Then mates that overhearing a conversation and one thing led to another, and I turned up Paul Gilbert’s Research Centre in Darby. And, and that was it. So that was in 1999, that I met Paul, and started working with him and went back after I qualified after I got my degree in placement, or what sort of work position there’s research psychologist and did my PhD part time with him. So basically, that was me done before based on teaching Amy and I, somebody once said to me, that I, I was brainwashed by Paul Gilbert. So compassion focus therapy was the first model I ever was introduced to really want. If you’re going to be brainwashed in something, then maybe conditioning in the worst thing in the world.

Hayley Quinn

Not at all I’ve got and what seems like such an error at the time. Oh my god, I’m screwed this up what we’re gonna do, we’re gonna have a placement, this is awful. And gosh, how wonderful that that was the path that you ended up on.

Chris Irons

A lot of luck, a lot of serendipity and later on a lot of hard work, but the initial bit was was definitely fortuitous

Hayley Quinn

Yeah, fantastic. So So what do you do with your time now as a helping professional, what does that look like?

Chris Irons

I’m a real big mixture, which is one of the things I love most about my working life, really. So I still see lots of clients each week, which is wonderful. So I still do get to do lots of compassion focused therapy. I supervise maybe, I don’t know, eight 910 people a week, in their compassion, focus therapy work. I tend to do some writing and also some research. So there’s lots of different research projects that I’m doing at the moment. And then just other sort of, I guess, bits and pieces in terms of just trying to get compassion out there into the world. I think that’s been one of my passions recently of just trying to find how we can take this amazing model that Paul developed, and see if we could just bring it into the world more. So various projects, whether it’s the app or online courses are just different ways that the general public can begin to access some of these, you know, fantastic ideas. And then I guess the rest of the time is business stuff, really, there’s a couple of businesses that I sort of lead on so there’s balance minds, which is our therapy practice. And then I just about to launch another organisation called balo, which stands for balanced organisations, which is going to be how to bring compassion into organisations. So it’s going to be very focused on how we can bring these ideas to businesses to law firms was to the NHS to all sorts of different places, really, so. So yeah, that keeps me I guess it gives him busy and mostly out of trouble. Yeah, so I’m very lucky in the sense that yeah, lots of interesting things that I get to do.

Hayley Quinn

Yeah, well, that’s wonderful. I love the sound of the new organisation. That’s brilliant. And I think, you know, I’ve talked to my supervisors about this, and other colleagues, that diversity of practice, I think, really helps us keep this sustainable hey.

Chris Irons

I think it’s such a lovely point you’re making I mean, I can, I guess, I felt very lucky, really, you know, my, my mentor in psychology has been Paul Gilbert. And so I got to see him day in day out, doing such a wide range of psychological activities, from being a clinician, to supervising people to doing research and supervising people and getting into the, you know, the sort of hands on bit of research, writing research papers, writing theory, papers, giving speeches, you know, so all these types of things, you’re having to run research units, you know, so that sort of silence as well. So I guess I, you know, that was my inspiration, I got to see this person doing all these different things. And, and I guess, as I’ve gone through my career, I’ve recognised that I love lots of different things about my job. And I guess it can be a downside in the sense that sometimes you end up spending lots of different plates, and you’re sort of dragged in different directions. But I also think it gives you that energy as you’re touching on that, that sort of sense, really, of if you enjoy it. And if you love it, then of course, it allows you to keep your hand into lots of different areas. It keeps you very stimulated, you learn so much from different areas from super busy as for my clients from the research that I do, and often like it sort of feeds into each other. So. So yeah, I think it’s if people can find that mixture of things that they really love in life, and certainly for me, it’s worked out really beautifully.

Hayley Quinn

And I guess there’s people as well, who, you know, I think for myself, you know, diversity because I can get bored easily. And I like to get energised by new and different things. But I guess for some people, it could be that they want to get into client work or whatever it is that they’re doing academia, whatever. And then that’s it, they just want to stay doing that one thing and that’s obviously a very valid choice as well. And a little bit, many people out there are running private practices. And I know that you have a large private practice based in London and Edinburgh, that you run with your partners, Karina and Charlie. So what do you think are the biggest challenges for private practice owners? And also, how do you think compassion can help with these.

Chris Irons

Great questions. I mean, we started off balanced minds, something like 10 or 11 years ago now. And it was just this very small little thing that we’re doing alongside our full time jobs working in the NHS. And now we’ve kind of grown to, I think, with the biggest organisation offering compassion, focus therapy anywhere in the world is the NHS but you know, back in the UK, but you can’t go specifically to any part of the NHS that I want this thing. So we’re in that sort of way. So it’s been a wonderful journey. But I guess that’s it. You know, there are lots of challenges that come with that. And I guess the intriguing thing for me is that the skills that you develop as a therapist, sometimes are useful when you turn towards morning business. Completely different set of skills that you need and, and at this stage sort of 10 or 11 years down the road. We’re only really getting to the stage of beginning to really think about things like marketing and getting our websites sorted out properly and lots of other things in which we never really had to think about before. But when I speak to like my friends or people who are actual business women in business men, they kind of laugh in a way I say What do you mean you never thought that these things before so constantly learning constantly keeping an open mind And I think this is the challenge, really. And as we were talking about before, if you have a single interest in some ways, it’s easier, because you can just focus on that thing, and you’re able to spend more time on it. The problem with having lots of different interests. And that’s been the case for Charlie, Karina and myself, is that it’s then quite difficult sometimes to make sure that you’ve got enough time to focus on all the different areas to grow a successful business. And so I think we’ve, you know, worked really hard and done really well, in many ways. But I think the challenge for me has been really recognising just how many different aspects there are to running a successful business, and just how many things you have to learn and things that actually you never got taught in doing an undergrad psychology degree, or my clinical training, so many different areas. And I found it actually very interesting. I’ve actually found it fascinating to learn about those things. But the hardest thing for me has been time. And so finding ways to create enough space so that your mind isn’t hopping around on to lots of different tasks. And I think that’s where compassion can be really supportive of this process, because it’s very easy at times, I guess, to feel overwhelmed. There’s so many different tasks that need to be done, to have that bit of, I guess, distress tolerance and a way to be able to sit alongside and to be with my emotions, and I guess my threat system, and also to hold that sort of Balanced View. You know, alongside myself really recognising that there’s only a certain amount that I can do that that compassion motivation towards self means that you don’t get too caught up in self criticism or rumination for mistakes or things that hadn’t quite happened. But also being able to look in and I guess, hopefully a healthy way, in the sense that I can always feel my drive system pulling on me, there’s always more things to do. Always another thing that we could be working on or doing this or doing that and, and how much tipping too far into the drive system can actually cause problems. You know, I think one of the intriguing things for me in the CFT model, you know, drive system as you know, Helios is a wonderful thing but pretty much everyone that I know in the CFT community have problems with their drive systems in the sense that we work so hard they’re all sort of out there just you know contributing so much and it can be hard concept to slow down sometimes and to create a balance so that you’re not tipping too much into to drive and certainly I’ve found that bringing compassion has been an important aspect for me in which I can notice what and drive systems pulling me too fast too strong too much when I feel that that threat system underneath is hitting it as well that threat base drive aspects certainly I know that in my life and then finding ways just to tolerate slow down ground myself again and again. And again.

Hayley Quinn

I talk a lot with other people and look out for myself with that threat base drive, because it can be tricky. But I think your point as well as that we have like the sort of therapists hat that we put on, but then we have to remember we’ve got like the business hat that we wear as well. And separating those, they’re not the same. And they take different skills. And yes, some of the therapy skills can be really helpful in business, but they’re not enough. And we don’t get taught any of this stuff, you know, and so many people are going into private practice, and then feeling so overwhelmed because they don’t have the skills because they’ve never had the opportunity to learn them in how to actually run a business whilst being a helping professional. And some of those things can be conflictual as well can’t they.

Chris Irons

Massively so. I remember when we first started off balance mines, it, I felt very, very conflicted. I’d always had a very strong passion about working in the NHS, about providing care free, my guess it’s not free in the sense that people still pay for it through taxes, but free at the points of access. And so that was always, for me personally, a very important thing. And actually, it was a conversation with Paul Gilbert, that really helped me to shift because I was chatting to Paul one day and I got to stage at work in the NHS, when I was hired in management may suspend, gosh, so much of my week, you know, sat in meetings, and we were having to talk about how many millions we’re going to have to cut in the budget and, and how this staffing was underperforming and all these kinds of things. And, you know, in some ways, it was kind of interesting, but when I was speaking to Paul Paul, or saying, you know, what do you want to do in your career, though, Chris? And I said, Well, you know, I want to do compassion stuff. And he was like, Well, can you do enough compassion stuff in the job that you’re doing? Can you do enough CFT stuff in the job you’re doing? I said, No, I can’t. And he said, Well, there’s your answer. You need to go and find the direction where you get to do as much as the CFT work as you want to do. And so for me, that was a very liberating thing because suddenly, it was about following CFT and compassion rather than following some an idea that was a very important one to me, but when I was putting on maybe two times Slightly two in which, you know, actually work for the NHS. Whereas actually, I think I’ve also been able to bring helpful stuff by not being within the NHS and having more time to be able to spread some of the CFT ideas. So, so I hear what you’re saying is that there can be a lot of conflict that certainly has been in me. But also, I think you touched a really good point, that difference between, and this is something that I’ve had to try to learn over the years, having maybe two or three clients and getting into that motivation. And that mind state, switching them to have to do business stuff within that same time frame like an hour later, it’s very difficult to do that, I have to do a little bit of practice myself almost to leave one to move into the other. Because as you might want it out there different motivations, you’re bringing on different systems online, and actually, they’re bouncing in between them. I remember, there was a period of time many years ago that sometimes I would try to do a bit of business stuff in between seeing clients, just pulling on the wrong psychologies. And so creating space for this is my time where I’m supervised. And this is my time where I’ve seen clients. And then on a separate day, this is when I’m doing research stuff or business development stuff. That’s something which has really worked well for me over time.

Hayley Quinn

We need to really stop considering it doesn’t weigh. And I think that’s beautiful that Paul asked you about. And I was speaking to a supervisor the other day, and asked the question, what is it you want to do in your business? And it was almost like, what do you mean? So what do you want to do? It’s not just what you should be doing or what you have that you have to do, we can actually stop and think well, what is that I want to do? What are my values? What do I find interesting and meaningful? What do I find enjoyable? And how can I create a business for myself around that as well? And even if you’re employed, are there ways that you can have conversations with management about redesigning your work, so that it is a good fit for you? Okay, it’s a loaded question, what do you want? So you teach and research compassion. And you’re the author of numerous books, including the compassionate mind workbook that you did with Dr. Elaine Beaumont, who’s also been on the podcast, and the compassionate mind approach to difficult emotions using compassion, focus therapy, and also experiencing compassion, focus therapy from the inside out with Russell colts, who also has been on the podcast, Toby Bell, and James Bennett Levy. So I’m curious, through all that, what has been your own biggest learning? Just a small question.

Chris Irons

Not to write any more books. I’m partly serious, I have actually promised with my wife that I won’t write any more books for the time being, because one of the intriguing things as much as I enjoyed doing, and gosh, they are full on experiences and take so much time from, from life, and I guess from family life as well. And so a big learning lesson for me is that, you know, I always tried to dedicate enough time to create the best books possible than this, you know, whatever project I’m working on. But recognising that I think it’s that whole thing when you first start coming up with an idea, I and I think I’m not the only one here, underestimate how much time this is going to take. And that was certainly the case, up until the last book. Finally, my fifth book, I kind of realised, actually, this takes a long time as the first initial books, you know, completely underestimated it and ended up you know, sort of up at five in the morning happened to work and you know, sort of after, you know, finishing work in the evening would sometimes do late night, you know, very late nights, we end times. And so, my learning lesson has been that if I’m not careful, my passion, and I guess back to what we were talking about earlier, my drive system can take me into doing things in which even though I enjoy it, my time gets swallowed up in it. And although in some ways, I’m lucky, because I got so much pleasure out of doing these things that I learned so much, at the same time looking back now, I don’t want my life to be balanced like that, because it wasn’t balanced. And so the learning lesson for me is that whenever I’m taking on any new project, whether it is you know, it wouldn’t be a book in the future, whether it’s research, whether it’s doing anything really, really being able to tap into my Compassionate self, and to remember how I’ve previously been an underestimated time and really looking at this and trying to look from the balcony really and judging. Do I have enough time for this? What am I going to be able to do to dedicate time around this? And also, and maybe this is one of the single most important things that I’ve ever learned is then learning to say no, so when new things one, a very exciting and shiny And and wonderful. I have to say no, because I now have the wisdom to recognise that in the past I didn’t. And that was the thing that then started causing problems. So saying No, for me has been the most important things that I’ve learned in my career.

Hayley Quinn

Yeah, I would absolutely agree with that. I think it’s really about getting to know yourself, isn’t it? It’s having that real, being tuned in to yourself, what your limits are, what your strengths are. And that learning to say no piece is so so important, isn’t it? And for me, I always remind myself, it’s not necessarily a no full stop. It could be a no, not yet. Yes, exactly. No, not yet. But I’ll speak to you again in the new year, and maybe we could maybe we could do something then or contact me again in three months and ask me again.

Chris Irons

Exactly. And I think that making that knowing yourself is such a wonderful one. I mean, for me, it links into CFT stuff in lovely ways. I mean, one, of course, we talk a lot in CFT is you know about about wisdom being an important part of the compassion itself. And wisdom is often described as knowledge plus experience. And I think that’s a really intriguing thing about how you’re mixing these things together. So younger version of Chris didn’t have that knowledge plus experience to be able to be wise in that moment. Whereas this version of Chris, I won’t say that I’m wise, but I certainly have more experience and more knowledge and that I can hopefully apply to myself, knowing myself really knowing where I’m about to say yes to something when I actually know that I’m going to be really stretched, or that I recognise that something’s pulling on my drive system. And I’ve got that familiar feeling. I’m getting excited, but having to slow myself down and maybe chatting through with other people as sort of anchors to my mind. You know, I’m thinking about doing this thing. What do you reckon and so recognising that if it’s just internal my drive system, as we said earlier, can be so sneaky that finally I’ve kind of in the backseat, yeah, of course, without consciously being aware, it was actually asked me out to a friend and actually talk through, you know, they’re almost shaking their head, like, what are you thinking about? Chris? Yeah. Maybe next year, or as you saying, Haley? Like, delay it, slow it down. So So I think over time getting to know myself in that way as Yeah, a big change to my working life.

Hayley Quinn

Yeah, I think you bring in that beautiful piece as well, isn’t it that we are social beings, were driven to connect and actually reaching out to others as part of that system of how can I know myself better? Or part of how we can know ourselves better is actually to ask people close to us as well, isn’t it? What do you think?

Chris Irons

The only thing though, is you have to be careful who you ask. So Charlie Harriet Maitland, some people will know listing is a good friend of mine and colleague, a fantastic psychologist. And the problem with chatting to Charlie about these things is that both of us come at it with Drive system. And so that’s always been an issue for us that and so you have to also have the wisdom to know, like, when do you speak to somebody who is quite drive system orientated? And when do you speak to somebody who’s a little bit more balanced, maybe even a little bit threat system based? Who can actually come up with some of the difficulties and the potential problems? Because as much as you might not want to hear it? It’s actually important if I can allow that in.

Hayley Quinn

Yeah. So you are wise Chris, you say that’s very wise, know who to talk to? And when I’m working on it. So can we think about this a little bit more broadly? How do you think cultivating a compassionate mind can assist us as human beings navigating this thing we call life?

Chris Irons

Gosh, I guess we could speak all day about that, couldn’t we? I mean, there’s a couple of things that, you know, sort of immediately, you know, jumped to mind. One of them that, that sometimes I talk about when I’m teaching or sometimes in therapy, it always sort of fascinates me to remind myself really is that if we all think about it, we will spend far more time in our life in relationship with ourselves than we will do with anybody else that we meet, and we add up every single hour, that we’re in relationship to other people, whether it’s our partners, our family members, our kids, our friends, our colleagues, it comes to nowhere close to how many hours we spend in relationship with ourselves. And so the key thing for me though, is two bits one is what type of relationship do we have with ourselves? Do we tend to treat ourselves with the same kindness, the same care, the same nurturance as we do, the people that we love around us? But secondly, how many of us have been actively taught how to be in relationship with ourselves how many of us have learned this wired this in any particular way and, and of course, it turns out that whilst we have amazing things that we learn at school from, you know, the sciences, maths and languages and all this amazing stuff. Most people who have ever gone to school, never get taught about their minds, never get taught about our own internal relationship. And so I think this whole idea about compassion, about CFT, and the idea of the compassion itself, for me, that’s the starting point in any of this stuff is how important it is to cultivate and have access to a part of me that could be wise, that could be strong and grounded that could be committed to myself and others. And then of course, learning how to be that version, how to that version and work towards whatever it might be that crops up in life from the the joys and the excitements that some of the stuff we’ve been touching on but also to the great pains and the great distressing things that turn up in all human beings lives. So I think for me, that the centre ground really of the creation of being able to access them and then utilise a compassionate self that has certain qualities is the most important thing. And if my son could learn that for himself, if I could know at this moment he’ll be on the first of September. So I could imagine in 15 years time, or 20 years time or 30 years time knowing that he had access to this thing, this compassionate self, I would be a very, very, very happy father, it would leave me knowing that he has something internal to him, which can be there alongside whatever happens to him in life. And that’s, I think the thing that struck me, the more that I’ve practised this idea of a compassionate self is that I have a kind of confidence now. And it’s the kind of confidence in which, strangely, I know that if something bad happens in my life, I’ll be okay. So I was chatting to somebody the other day about this and say, Look, if I don’t think my wife has ever cheated on me, but if I found out that she cheated on me that she left me, I’d be devastated. But I also know it’d be okay. Yeah, because there’s a part of me that knows that I can be open to that pain. And I would be able to find a path through and underneath, or I would be okay, in the end, I would find happiness again, I’ll be able to manage. And so there’s a confidence that that breeds, I think, in which is not dissociating from the a little bit more balanced maybe even a little bit threat system based who can actually come up with some of the difficulties, the potential problems.

Hayley Quinn

So can we think about this a little bit more broadly, how do you think a cultivated compassionate mind can assist us as human beings navigating this thing we call life?

Chris Irons

Gosh, I guess we could speak all day about that, couldn’t we? I mean, there’s a couple of things that, you know, sort of immediately, you know, jumped to mind. One of them that, that sometimes I talk about when I’m teaching or sometimes in therapy, it always sort of fascinates me to remind myself really is that if we all think about it, we will spend far more time in our life in relationship with ourselves than we will do with anybody else that we meet, and we add up every single hour, that we’re in relationship to other people, whether it’s our partners, our family members, our kids, our friends, our colleagues, it comes to nowhere close to how many hours we spend in relationship with ourselves. And so the key thing for me though, is two bits one is what type of relationship do we have with ourselves? Do we tend to treat ourselves with the same kindness, the same care, the same nurturance as we do, the people that we love around us? But secondly, how many of us have been actively taught how to be in relationship with ourselves how many of us have learned this wired this in any particular way and, and of course, it turns out that whilst we have amazing things that we learn at school from, you know, the sciences, maths and languages and all this amazing stuff. Most people who have ever gone to school, never get taught about their minds, never get taught about our own internal relationship. And so I think this whole idea about compassion, about CFT, and the idea of the compassion itself, for me, that’s the starting point in any of this stuff is how important it is to cultivate and have access to a part of me that could be wise, that could be strong and grounded that could be committed to myself and others. And then of course, learning how to be that version, how to that version and work towards whatever it might be that crops up in life from the the joys and the excitements that some of the stuff we’ve been touching on but also to the great pains and the great distressing things that turn up in all human beings lives. So I think for me, that the centre ground really of the creation of being able to access them and then utilise a compassionate self that has certain qualities is the most important thing. And if my son could learn that for himself, if I could know at this moment he’ll be on the first of September. So I could imagine in 15 years time, or 20 years time or 30 years time knowing that he had access to this thing, this compassionate self, I would be a very, very, very happy father, it would leave me knowing that he has something internal to him, which can be there alongside whatever happens to him in life. And that’s, I think the thing that struck me, the more that I’ve practised this idea of a compassionate self is that I have a kind of confidence now. And it’s the kind of confidence in which, strangely, I know that if something bad happens in my life, I’ll be okay. So I was chatting to somebody the other day about this and say, Look, if I don’t think my wife has ever cheated on me, but if I found out that she cheated on me that she left me, I’d be devastated. But I also know it’d be okay. Yeah, because there’s a part of me that knows that I can be open to that pain. And I would be able to find a path through and underneath, or I would be okay, in the end, I would find happiness again, I’ll be able to manage. And so there’s a confidence that that breeds, I think, in which is not dissociating from the pains of life, it’s the confidence to know that you can be in the presence of it, and to be able to do something helpful with it. And I think that’s, you know, for me, personally, it’s maybe one of the greatest things that I’ve learned for myself, and it would be one of the things that I’d be happiest to know, that other people around me could have for themselves as well.

Hayley Quinn

Yeah, I’d absolutely agree. I think that our relationship with ourselves is paramount. And, you know, I’ve spoken many times about the learning CFT and compassionate mind training has been life changing for me. Absolutely. And, you know, I think you can rest assured that you have spread the, the work of compassionate mind, to many, many people on this planet, Chris, and certainly your son have shopped visa is going to be for I might my gosh, he was like this tiny baby at the conference, was he nearly four. But to have Korean parents, I think he’s gonna find that compassion itself is really strong. So that’s gonna happen.

Chris Iron

He might do that. The other way you could say is that as a child, both of your parents are psychologists. That’s also a bit of a challenge. I don’t think I necessarily want that. So he’s gonna have some different influences going on for him. But yeah, you’re absolutely right. Ultimately, if he’s able to develop that, and if we’re able to allow and facilitate that in Him, then then I would, you know, have a sense that actually I could, I could be confident that he’s got something that he will be able to use to face life’s difficulties.

Hayley Quinn

Absolutely. So I hear from people all the time about the challenges of taking care of ourselves. And I think, you know, again, and we could talk about this whole time. You sort of touched on you know, I’m working on that and working on this. I’m working on that. What do you find to be the biggest challenges that you face in taking care of yourself both within and outside of your work?

Chris Irons

It’s definitely definitely to do with the drive system and time. Yeah. 100% For me, so the greatest challenges I’ve faced ultimately with this is when I feel my time is squeezed. So when I feel my time is squeezed and I’ve got lots of things to do. Things start dropping off my list so I don’t exercise anymore. I end up sleeping with that. As I take less care of myself, because I’ve got all these things that I need to finish, and a lot of the time, it’s tricky because like I said before, my drive system is very strong, and therefore I can be enjoying doing these things. So it’s not even like I’m doing them and resentful and sort of angry. And you know, that sort of the positive thing about feeling your threat system coming online, because you can listen to it and then start taking different directions, you’re almost it feels so unpleasant that I’m not going to do this again. The problem for me is my drive system because we have so much pleasure in doing lots of these projects, and they can get added in and added in that I get to a point where I don’t realise that other things are dropping out. And so in terms of self care and healthiness of life, generally speaking, what then happens, like I say, is I start living a version of life in which I, I, without realising, sometimes start dropping out things, which I know logically and I will support other people to do are things that need to be centred around to me. And so I think that’s one one issue for me. So that’s the sort of drive system and I guess it’s partly internal, but with these projects, and then, I think personally, maybe what I’ve learned, having recently moved from London to Portugal, has been that the external environment around me can also make a big difference. And as much as I really enjoyed living in London, London, for me is is a threat based drive, you know, it’s a city, very, it’s very threat based drive, and a lot of drive system stuff, people are super busy, they’re working long hours, they go out after work, to drink and to eat. And it’s this nonstop lifestyle. And so I think, knowing internally what my drive system is like, and then it’d be met externally with an environment like London, which is very pacing quick, that combination I can be, can be running at a pace without running, realising that I’m running too fast. And that it’s actually only been since moving to Portugal and slowing down, working less and being outdoors more having the Sunshine Law and living in a city where, gosh, the pace is so slow in comparison that I’ve realised that without being fully conscious, the environment I was previously living in was interacting in a negative way, I think with my drive system, and that actually now being here, everything feels a little bit more steady that I can I don’t have so many external influences re stimulating or fueling, I guess my internal capacity for drive systems. So I think that’s been a big learning thing for me. And recognising that that’s, that’s something I need to hold on to and why actually having greater balance in part, I think the external to internal it’s quite an interesting thing to hold in mind.

Hayley Quinn

Yeah, I think that’s great. That note saying that the context that you’re in, will either play into or not this internal system that’s working as well. And again, it comes back to knowing yourself, doesn’t it? I’m willing to look at myself, notice why I do certain things, and work on that relationship with myself to say, well, actually, this isn’t working for me, I’m gonna make a different decision, I’m gonna take care of myself in a different way. I didn’t realise at the time I moved to Australia, when I was 25. There was something in me that knew that being where I was was not helpful for me. And moving over here was the start of some much healthier changes for me in my life. But I really liked the point you made before as well that, you know, and this is where it can be tricky, because I think oftentimes people get really busy and they take on lots of stuff. And then it’s like, oh, my gosh, I’m so overwhelmed. I’m doing too much and it feels bad. What you’re saying is, actually you don’t notice that. So it’s not as easy to say, but it’s then when you look you think actually, when did I last exercise? Oh, no, I haven’t been Oh, actually, when did I last do this or go for a checkup? Or whatever it might be? Oh, no, haven’t been. Oh, I’ve been so enjoying it, being in my drive system gets really busy that you don’t see it as unhelpful. One of my one of my first guests that I had on the podcast. Dr. Jacques Rizk is a psychologist in Melbourne and he was my office roommate when I was at uni. And he was saying how he would start using humour a lot. And so you’re kind of being all jokey and jovial and not not see that necessarily as a bad thing until you get to know yourself. And then you can say, Oh, actually, when I realise I’m doing this, I know that I’m getting out of balance. You know, when you’re like, Oh, I’m really really enjoying being so busy. It’s like Oh, hang on a minute. I probably need to check in on that.

Chris Irons

It’s again, this whole thing isn’t it, it is easier to notice things when they are, you know, noticeably distressing or painful. So for example, if it’s our bodies, you know, and suddenly, you know, you bend over to pick something up and all, you get that shooting pain in your back, I mean, that’s so obvious, you can’t ignore it. Whereas when it’s a subtle pain, something that can be in the background that you can kind of just get used to over time. It’s far more difficult, I think, to tune in and do something about that. And so I think this whole thing about and this is where coming back, I guess, to the CFC model, and to the definition of compassion, the idea of sensitivity, first psychology, so important, because for me, one of the issues can be is that when it’s subtle, and it’s quiet, when your threat system is getting a little blips, but a little bit like you get, you know, with a radar, you know, it’s a small blip. It’s not one of those big ones you see on those sort of us films, where it’s like a great big destroyer coming to blow up the base, or whatever, it’s like a little blip, that it can go unnoticed. And I think that’s one of the tricky things sometimes. And so you’re listening, like finding ways to really slow down and to listen to tune in, which of course, you know, mindfulness and other things can begin to support us to do but beginning to recognise. And also, I think your point earlier in knowing yourself, is that you kind of know where you can trick yourself. Yeah. be honest with yourself over time. I mean, sometimes there are very external things like for example, you, for me, I don’t know, putting on a pair of shorts and realising that actually, it’s hard to fit them, then thinking why are these not fitting me? When was the last time I went to the gym? Oh, six months ago? Oh, you know, so then you sort of work back, I get to see how I just haven’t been tracking this at all. Whereas, of course, the more that actually you begin to know yourself, and you recognise that actually, I know what’s going on here. And this is the bit where being sensitive in those early stages to it. And that’s hard, I know it’s cliche, but nipping it in the butt, that whole bit where you can actually take responsibility for these things without beating myself up. And I think that’s a crucial thing. Because the more you get caught up in that shame and that self criticism or or just the avoidance, I don’t want to look at it. Whereas of course, if you can just be in the presence of it and kind of smile, really, I kind of know this is how I am. I know this is how my brain is wired. And as you said earlier, the brain is tricky, but you can just get used to it. You think about taking some steps to take responsibility.

Hayley Quinn

Yeah. So yeah, when we notice it, because it can be the time then can’t it for the self critic to kind of jump in and be like, yes, go to town on us. And if we can then offer ourselves compassion, or even just start to try and offer ourselves compassion, treat ourselves the way we might treat a loved one. And what we might say to them if they had been doing something that wasn’t so helpful for themselves and start to criticise. But it is tricky. It’s hard being human, right?

Chris Irons

Hayley Quinn

Yeah, absolutely. It’s just such a beautiful framework not only for us to use with our clients in therapy, but to use for ourselves as a way of living life, I think.

Chris Irons

Absolutely. And I think that’s the other bit, isn’t it, that, you know, sort of often talking to think about myself, but also thinking about the clinicians that, you know, I work with and supervise. And it’s this recognition, isn’t it for our, you know, for those of people who are listening here, and therapists, you know, your job basically is going to involve day in day out going into some of the most distressing things that can ever happen to a human being. And so, your job is basically to enter a threat system again and again and again. And one of the things that I’ve been passionately trying to advocate for but also thinking about hopefully doing some research on in the near future, is is kind of borrowing ideas from elsewhere really, and particularly borrowing from from athletes, because the comparison thing for me is, you know, I don’t know we’ve just had Wimbledon in the UK say or there’s the World Championships athletics on that moment in the US As you know, the idea that you’d have Usain Bolt doing 100 metres in, you know, the Olympics final of the Athletics Championships final or Serena Williams coming onto centre court and serving for Wimbledon final, without having warmed up is ridiculous. The idea that they just turn it up and they just sprint their fastest or they just get straight into doing dynamic energy and exercise is ridiculous because of course all of us know that they will spend a lot of time preparing their bodies and minds for the activity they’re going to do. But one of the things that I’ve been trying to think about with people is, how can we don’t do that as clinicians? Yeah, how come we don’t warm up before we do our event, which is to go into some of the most severe and distressing things that can happen to human beings. And so the idea in some ways, I mean, I know some clinicians do do a version of this, but most people I talked to have never been taught on their training courses that may be we need to prepare our bodies and minds psychologically, and I guess physiologically, certainly from the CFT point of view, trying to tap into this idea of a compassionate self, the vagus nerve, and so on. And to have that as the part of us that’s warmed up and prepped to then go in and do our sessions. And also, if I stretch the analogy, it’s that whole point that after you say Bob has finished his race, or after Serena Williams is finished final, it doesn’t matter whether they won or lost, but they will warm down, they will take time, again, to allow their bodies to do healthy things. And again, very few of us have learned that for our training that maybe just maybe after seeing 5, 6, 7 people in a day, who are very, very distressed, and maybe we need to consciously wear down. And of course, from my point of view, that compassion itself, that is the vehicle that allows us to warm up, but also the vehicle that allows us to run down as well. So I think you’ve got such an important point, the touching on here, and these are the kinds of ideas that I think can we can begin to spread them, they could lead to huge benefits not just for clinicians of all sorts of stripes, but teachers and social workers and many people who are in encountering roles.

Hayley Quinn

Absolutely. And the reality is, I imagine it’s the same in the UK. But certainly a lot of practitioners I’ve talked to over here in Australia, lots of people do back to back sessions, they literally have one client walk out the door, and they barely have time to go to the bathroom, or get a drink of water and another client’s coming in. And there’s no space, I always encourage people who I work with to just start trying to create some space between sessions. But I remember the first annual compassionate mind summit and retreat in New York, and you zoomed in and did some training for us. And you talked about the before, during and after concept with compassion itself. And that stayed with me a lot of that, you know, how can we prepare for whatever it is that we’re going into? And then how can we be compassionate with ourselves during and then afterwards, which is often a time when the critic wants to show up and say, Oh, your session, you just did billing was a bit crap. I’m not a very good therapist, or how can you be compassionate itself, and be with yourself in a way that is kind and nurturing after that as well. And that’s certainly something I’ve held with me since then. And you know I use it in my work with other practitioners. So thank you for introducing me to that. Because that, I think, has been something that is really valuable.

Chris Irons

Nice to hear. And I think just finding practical ways to embody our compassionate selves, I think is, for me, like the most crucial things, it’s wonderful to be able to sit and do 10 minutes of closed eyes practice listening to a guided audio. But in the end, we also need to find very practical, pragmatic ways to help people to actually be this version in their life. And so that’s why some of these ideas that I’ve been trying to work on trying to speak to that because I, that’s personally what I find a benefit as well is having actual, practical, tangible things that I can tap in the moment. So that’s really nice. Thank you.

Hayley Quinn

Yeah, thank you. So, again, it’s a big question. I’m asking you to distil something down to one piece of advice. But what would be one piece of advice that you would share with our listeners?

Chris Irons

I think that the main bit of advice is to, to build the part of you that you’re going to need that you’re going to be able to rely upon that you’re going to be able to turn to and utilise guests as we were just talking about this idea whether it’s the PDA the pre during or after this idea of warming up warming down. You first need to build something to be able to do that you need to be able to prepare something so I think the big bit of advice really would be If we can create and spend time building a part of self, that essentially will be a mate going forward, that will be the thing you can turn to that you can proximity seek that will be this secure base and safe haven, I guess, looking at lots of those wonderful attachment theory type qualities there that Bob we talked about. For me, that’s gold dust. That’s it, once you’ve got that there, then of course, you have to use it, it’s the you know, there’s no point in not turning to it, but you can’t use it, if you don’t have it, it’s a little bit like with fitness, isn’t it, I sometimes use the analogy really, with this sort of CRT practices that, you know, it’s a little bit like if I go down to the gym or go running, I don’t know, four or five times a week. And I will do that for three months, I will go fitness and that’s going to reduce my blood pressure and increase my bone density and a whole bunch of things, my cardiovascular system that we all know is healthy. And to a certain extent, that’s the case too, when you’re doing compassionate mind training practices that you say practice and you got your eyes closed, or you’re compassionate itself. If you do that regularly, we know that there are all sorts of wonderful benefits physiologically and psychologically from doing that. But it’s so it’s having that, but then it’s being able to put it into place. So this would be, I guess, the adjunct, the second part of the advice really is that if I have been doing physical fitness five days a week for three months, if I then tried to, I have to fly to go and do some teaching somewhere. And if I turn up at the airport and Lisbon and I’m a little bit late, being able to run them for two minutes across the airport Hall to be able to get to the gate and catch my flight, I can do that if I’ve been running regularly, I can put in my work. But if I haven’t been doing fitness training, then even if I want to run in a sprint for two minutes, I’m not going to be able to do it. And it’s similar to compassion itself, you need to have something developed, you have to have some sort of Fitness First to then be able to turn towards it when basically your threat system gets hot. And so those two things, basically the building capacity, and then utilising it when you need it. Those would be the major things that I’d advise anybody if they are keen to learn how compassion can help them?

Hayley Quinn

Yeah, very good advice, I would say very good advice. So this is a question I love to ask all my guests. If you could meet your 80 year old self, what do you think your future self would say to you?

Chris Irons

If I can get to 80, I’d be very happy. That’d be the first thing. So I reckon I’d give him a hug well done. You must have done something all right, to make it through to that age. But I think this eighty year old version turning back to me. I think one of the things that you know, I think was standout, most words would actually be very simple things, which I guess links to what we’ve been talking about really, which is slow down. So the first thing I think we’d be in a way, I think that version of Chris would be quite proud of what I’ve done recently, in switching to Portugal, working less, being outdoors more, exercising more. So he would almost probably have a bit of a wry smile and say, I told you so. Yeah. Quite happy taking the piss out of me. But, but I think that first bit wears down, and then I think that you know, just that whole bit. I remember my mom telling me about this when I was maybe 16 or 17. And repeating this phrase that many of you would have heard, she said youth is wasted on the young Chris. And it’s something that’s really stuck with me, if I could go back at any stage really, and speak to a younger version of myself. It’s that whole communicating the knowledge, you know, whatever you think is difficult whatever’s going on here, I mean, it’s real, but trust me, the 20 year old version of us got it good. Now, as a 44 year old, I speak to my 30 year old self and say you know what, you’ve got it good, your body works fine, you know, these aches and pains and say it is April virgin, it would be reminding myself of exactly that, you know, trust me laugh. By the time you get to a new one, your aches and pains and difficulties are going on for you. You know it gets a bit tough actually, and I guess the playful point really is you know, what it would lead me to is really just living life in a bit more of a liberated way. In that way in which it just opens you up to recognising many ways that life is short and that what you have now is going to change and you know, you might not be able to have that same capacity to run or to swim or to do this or to do that or to work and and so in a way what it allows you to do is both appreciate and enjoy what it is but also maybe not get too caught up and I don’t mean it in an invalidating way but not getting too caught up with some of those day to day things which sometimes I just feel like there’s so pressing and so all consuming. Whereas actually with that vantage point, if you’re looking down from the balcony, you can see, you know what? So these things passes. Alright. And so yeah, I think that’s, if I haven’t got to meet him, we’d have a beer, we’d have a bit of a chat. I have a bit of a laugh, and hopefully it’d be able to advise me a little bit too.

Hayley Quinn

So fantastic. I love that and just love asking people that question. So you touched on some new projects? Which is called Balo, yeah?

Chris Irons

Balanced organisations. Yes.

Hayley Quinn

Fantastic. And you mentioned very briefly earlier that the app, which is the self compassion app, isn’t it? And I spoke to Dr. Elaine Beaumont, who is the CO creator of that in a previous episode about that. So other than that, the app, and you’re welcome to talk a little bit more about Balo. But are there any other sort of current projects or research that you’re currently working on?

Chris Irons

There’s lots of different things, really. And I guess this goes back to what we were saying earlier, you know, having lots of different interests, really. So it’s, I’m quite lucky at this stage of my career that I can work with wonderful psychologists who in training or early stage, psychologists do research. And so some wonderful research projects at the moment, so on, which is looking at, if you take people just do the psychoeducation of CFT. So like the 3 system model, or the tricky brain idea, or were socially shaped, can that bring changes to people’s psychology. So just doing that, forget about doing any other practices, any therapy stuff. So we’ve got a project there, we’ve got some data that’s come back, which is really lovely. That’s quite exciting. Showing that yes, that seems to help with things like shame, and increasing self compassion, and acceptance, and so on. So that’s exciting. We also did a project recently that we’re going to start writing up, which I guess, again, goes to some of the basics of CFT, looking at voice tones, to pause initial way into this rare notice some of his clients were using these different voice tones, and how that could strip away the helpfulness of some of the words. And so we’ve actually set up an experimental study and got the data back now on doing exactly that. So could we see that even if you contain the same cognitive content in a phrase that you read it from a different internal voice tone? Would that land in a different way? In terms of the helpfulness and yet short stories? Yes, we’ve been able to find that, which is wonderful. So I’m quite interested Hayley in those kinds of studies of taking some of the core aspects of CFT. And seeing if we can begin to look at those. I mean, I think anyone who uses CRT recognises that they seem to be really helpful for people. But I think it’s always good to get data to show that’s the case. And then it’s a bunch of other sort of, you know, projects that are going on. So as you say, there’s the app, which we’re excited about, we’re going to do more research on there’s a developed during COVID, a pandemic and the shutdown, an online four week self compassion course, again, just this idea, how can we get these ideas out there, and I’ve wanted to try to see if you already gave people 30 Minutes video, so for 30 minute videos, would that be enough of them just watching me talk through some ideas and practice some stuff, and then just have some of the audio files and reading stuff to back it up in between. So that was really wonderful, because we got some fantastic research published last year from that, but we’re using this online course now with, we’re going to start to study with nurses, we’re going to use this also with people who are experiencing or struggling with diabetes. So it’s just trying to see if we can roll out this idea of just a very short amount of CFT ideas or CMT practice, can this be a benefit to people? So again, this sort of way of how can we spread these ideas far and wide? And then I guess it comes back to thinking also outside of this rather than individuals, you know, given that we spend a lot of our times in life in organisations, that’s where the idea of balance came around, can we begin to take the CFT model the three system model that some of the beautiful ideas within CFT and direct them into and have a place basically where people can come along and learn about this? For their organisations, whatever their organisation might be, whether that’s for management or leadership training, or whether it’s in HR, how would you hire people and even five people from a CFT and compassion based way? How would you organise and structure your organisation in such a way that has compassion rippling through it? And that recognition, I guess that your employees, your staff, they they are your goddess, they are your you know, they are the thing that keeps things ticking, so how can we actually look for people with great care and kindness and compassion and how of course some wonderful studies now coming online showing that To actually low and behold, when people feel that their organisation cares for them that they seem, who would guess it that they like to leave them to not be sick, so much, tend to be more productive? So I mean, all these things, it’s, it’s some ways it’s not brain science. But you know, it’s good to be able to, I guess create things where people can begin to find out and use both how to do this, but also then to do research just to back it up to.

Hayley Quinn

Now that sounds absolutely brilliant, well done. So if people want to find out more about you get in touch, where can they engage with you and your work? And I’ll put links in the show notes as well.

Chris Irons

Yeah, so people can drop me an email, it’s chris@balanced minds.com. So as you say, it’ll be in the show notes. And people can see that, certainly our website Balanced Minds, simply www.balancedminds.com. And, and then I don’t do much so much at the moment on social media, on Twitter, and Facebook, which in some ways is a good thing, but I give them my intention is to try to spread some of these ideas a little bit further and wider, I will be moving a little bit more into doing some of that stuff. So people will be able to find me there too. But I’m very happy for people just to drop me an email, I’m very happy just to have chats with people about this. Because, as I know, you feel as well Hayley, this thing, compassion and CFT you know, such a wonderful thing that Paul is provided to the world and both was very passionate about this. And, and just also, in a way being able to spread the message. You know, as I said earlier, you know, I in some ways, was brainwashed by Paul when I was 19 year old, and maybe I’m happy to brainwash other people in compassion. Again, for him. Maybe this was to be doing in part to be spending our time just chatting about compassion and hanging out and spending time.

Hayley Quinn

Yeah, I think a goal. I don’t think a goal to brainwash the world with compassion is about a goal. Oh, it’s been an absolute pleasure, Chris. I’m so thrilled that you’ve come on to chat with me. It’s really lovely to see you. And I’m really excited to see you in Edinburgh later this year.

Chris Irons

Wonderful I can’t wait to sit down and see you face to face and catch up. And thank you so much for having me on the podcast as well. I really loved being here today. But also just for people who haven’t listened to previous episodes, too. You know, I really enjoy listening to them. And it’s been great listening to people that are mates of mine but also people that I didn’t know before. So I think you’re doing a fantastic job and well done.

Hayley Quinn

Thank you. Lovely to see you. Thank you so much.

Hayley Quinn

Thank you for sharing this time with me today, I hope your time here was helpful and supportive. If there has been something in this episode that you have found helpful, I invite you to share it with another person you think might benefit. I’d also love it if you would like to leave a review wherever you tune in. Reviews really help to increase awareness of podcasts, meaning I can spread helpful information more widely. All reviews are welcome and much appreciated as I know they take time out of your day. If you’d like to be notified when the next episode airs, please use the link in the show notes to join my mailing list. Music and editing by Nyssa Ray, thanks Nyssa. I wish you all well in your relationship with Your Self and may you go well and go gently.

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