Episode #26 Burnout and Recovery with Dr Rebecca Ray
Hi and welcome to another episode. I’d like to take a moment of gratitude for everyone who’s contacted me regarding episode topics and given me feedback. I really do appreciate it and it definitely keeps me motivated to keep this podcast going.
Before we get into this episode, don’t forget my colleague Dr Lisa McLean and I will be presenting a two day in-person CFT for Trauma training at the beautiful Sunshine Coast in November. You can find the link in the show notes or reach out via my website. We’d love to have you join us.
I’m thrilled to introduce my next guest, a fellow psychologist and businesswoman I’ve had the pleasure of working with Dr Rebecca Ray. Beck is a clinical psychologist, author and speaker. Over the course of almost two decades of practice, Beck has helped thousands of big-picture-thinking people, through courses, consultations, and transformative content live a life that’s fulfilling, unapologetic, and free. Whilst her technique is science-backed, her approach sees her deliver both hard and heart truths within an ethos of self-kindness first, always. Beck’s unique expertise sets her apart as one of Australia’s most in-demand and authoritative voices in the personal development space. Beck is an author of five books, including Be Happy, The Art of Self-Kindness, The Universe Listens to Brave, Setting Boundaries, and Small Habits for a Big Life. She lives in the soul-fed hills of the Sunshine Coast, one of my favourite places in the world, with the great loves of her life: her wife Nyssa, son Bennett, two rescue Irish Setters and one gangly Weimaraner.
I’m sure you’ll get a lot from this episode and enjoy it as much as I did. It’s my pleasure to introduce Beck to Welcome to Self.
Hi, this is Welcome to Self ™ Caring for the Human in the Therapist Chair, and I’m your host, Dr. Hayley D Quinn, fellow human, clinical psychologist, supervisor and trainer. Welcome to Self ™ is a place where you can come and learn ways to elevate your own care and compassion. A place to rest, be soothed, and at times maybe gently challenged to think about yourself and your practice. A place to remember that you are human first, choose the helping profession is just one of the roles in your life. My aim is that this is a place of soothing, comfort, nourishment, growth and nurture. A place where you can also welcome your self.
Rebecca Ray
I’m so happy to see your face again. It’s really really nice.
Hayley Quinn
It’s lovely meeting on Zoom, isn’t it? Unfortunately, the listeners won’t get to see our faces, but we’ll hear our chat, which I’m really looking forward to.
Rebecca Ray
Absolutely. And what’s even more exciting is when we first met you didn’t even have a podcast. And now here we are chatting on your podcast.
Hayley Quinn
I know season three no less. I still find that mind blowing. I’m like, hang on, how am I a podcast host? But anyway I am. How life can creep up on you. Hey.
Rebecca Ray
Absolutely.
Hayley Quinn
So you’ve had an interesting path to becoming a psychologist. And like many of us, you took the scenic route as well to get here. Can you share some of your story with us?
Rebecca Ray
Yeah, I mean, it started off fairly, I think simple. I don’t know whether you have the same but at school, in high school, we had a careers night in grade 10. I still think, god grade 10 is such a, I was 15 It’s such a young age to be deciding what you’re going to do with the rest of your life. But I made a very clear decision that I was going to psychology and so I just happened to get the score that I needed to get into psychology. I did a double degree, a Bachelor of Business majoring in HR combined with a Bachelor of Arts in Psychology, and I started that straight out of school. I thought, right, this is what I’ll do and in that same year, so that year I was turning 18, my grandfather, Ronnie, he was a private pilot. He had his own plane and he happened to say to me, for context, he was one of the, and remains one of the greatest loves of my life, he and I were best friends. And he said to me, “if you can drive a car, you can fly a plane”.
And I was extremely anxious like I was the most fragile teenager you’ve ever met, I had such a, I don’t think I had low, well, I must have I must have had a low sense of self worth. But I felt like maybe a way to make this anxiety go away was to do something big and flying felt big.
But also something to the anxiety. And so I believed Ronnie, when he said, if you can drive a car, you can fly a plane. What I now know is that, that’s bullshit.
It must be to go against the very clear signs that flying wasn’t natural to me and do more of it. So I got my commercial pilot’s licence, I got my night’s VFR rating, I got my multi engine rating. And I also went on and won a scholarship through adset, which then got my instructor rating so that I can teach other people to fly.
Now at that time, so we’re some years into flying training now. I wanted to throw up every time I drove to the airport. And it had gotten to the point where I was actually physically making myself sick.
I think my, like, in retrospect, when I look back, I think what was happening was two things. One, I was pushing myself so far outside my strong suit, in terms of my natural strengths.
Flying a small piece of a team, you know, like, visual spatial skills, slash maths way just didn’t work for my brain, despite the fact that I didn’t fail any tests or anything. It just didn’t come naturally to me. And so there was that. And then I also think that I was operating from a place of trying to prove something I was, I was trying to make myself acceptable in some way. And flying was supposed to do that. And I didn’t, it didn’t change. If anything, it damaged my relationship with my spirit not fixed. I could wear them. But they didn’t feel comfortable. And so I sat down with my parents and said, and Ronnie, Ronnie thought the sun shone out of me, vice versa. So I thought I would upset him, but he didn’t mind at all. And my parents said, “we can see that you’re unhappy. So just do what you want to do”. And so I went back to psychology, but that transition felt like a huge failure for me, a really deep failure. And I held on to it for some years. I thought if I wasn’t flying for Qantas, like I said I was going to then I’ve obviously failed.
Hayley Quinn
Isn’t it interesting, the stories we tell ourselves?
Rebecca Ray
Right, so ridiculous. But at the time, that’s how it felt. And so then I went and did my masters, which turned into my professional doctorate in Newcastle University and I went into private practice. Again, I ended up in a place where I think I was trying to prove something I don’t know who to but I think I was looking outside at other psychologists that did lots of hours. And I thought, well, at the time I was single, so I had kind of nowhere else for my energy to go. It’s not like I was trying to maintain a relationship or anything. And I thought, well, I’ll pay off debt, because surely, that must be the thing that makes you worthy. You know, if I can get myself in a good place of financial position, then then I’ll be worthy. And so I work too much. And as you know, the vast majority of work that I did was treating emergency services, personnel and Defence Force, our current serving and retired personnel, so I was dealing with a lot of trauma. And despite the fact that it wasn’t actually the nature, it wasn’t the content of the work that I was doing that burnt me out, I just ended up doing so much of that work, like not saying no to referrers.
I was then forced to end my clinical career at the age of 35, about 35 years earlier than what I planned to.
At that time, as much as I was desperate to get out, I was devastated. It could always make me teary now thinking about saying goodbye to clients I had worked with who had chronic mental health difficulties. Over the course of years, you know, I was so invested in that work and in my relationships with them, and seeing them get better, you know, like, it was just one of the biggest joys and privileges of my life. And here I was having to walk away, like, again, just smashed failure in the face. I just felt awful. But I had no choice. I got myself into a position where burnout made the choice for me, really, really disappointing. And when I look back, I can see that what got me to that point was this idea of what I should be doing rather than what actually fit for me.
Hayley Quinn
Interesting my Welcome to Self group this morning. Actually, we were talking about comparisonitis where we look out, see what other people are doing and think well, that’s obviously what you should be doing. Rather than tuning in to actually what I need to be doing for me.
Rebecca Ray
Or even just knowing what the options are, but you do it differently. I think I looked outside and went, Well, that’s the way they’re doing it. So that’s the only way that can be done. And so I was left with this decision about how do I pay all my bills?
Actually, I guess the thing that allowed me to make the decision to walk away was Nyssa, my wife, so I found a healthy love for the first time in my life, and I would get home in the afternoon and she would be like, “how was your day?” and I would literally put my hand up in a stop position and say, I am not available for conversation. Like I’ve got nothing.
And it was, that had never happened to me in my life where someone else wanted a piece of me. And I got to the point where I was like, if I don’t have something left for the person I love most in the world, then what am I doing? It started to bleed out into my personal life and that’s when I was forced to make a decision. But I need to say this out loud for any listeners that are thinking, oh, did she just stop and work, walk away? It wasn’t that simple. The reason I could make that decision was because I had someone beside me saying you need to stop. Like it’s almost like she gave me permission. And I was not the only breadwinner anymore. I was not the only one paying our bills.
And so there was a little bit of space there to be able to step back, but I am not sure. Well, actually, I know that had I kept going the way that I was going, I would have had to stop, there would have been no choice. But Nyssa gave me permission to walk away when I really needed to.
And then I was forced to create another career. And that’s how you and I met. I woke up going, what am I going to do with my life?
I didn’t want to walk away from psychology because I love it so much. But I had to find a way to use psychology without using psychology. How do you be a psychologist without being, well how do you be a clinical psychologist without seeing patients? And so here we are. I accidentally fell into writing books, putting courses out online to make psychology accessible for people. And essentially creating a presence where people can access what I use to teach people in therapy
in a different format.
Hayley Quinn
Yeah, because it’s I mean, it’s a long road to becoming a psychologist, isn’t it? There’s a lot of work and a lot of work to go into it. And I think you know, it can be really sad when people have to move away from clinical practice.
And I love seeing both outcomes in that. People that decide, you know what, the clinical work is no longer for me but I’m going to use my skills for something else. And also people who go well, no, actually I really enjoy my one on one work. I love the clinical work that I’m going to find ways of doing it that’s sustainable.
Rebecca Ray
So my catchphrase is absolutely sustainable healing.
Hayley Quinn
So you’ve spoken very openly, over the years about your own burnout experience.
I’m just wondering, can you share with the listeners some of the things that you think they might look out for in terms of their own risk of burnout?
Rebecca Ray
Yeah, for me, it was slow and insidious. It happened over a series of years.
You know, I got to work and got over myself and I was fine. Then it turned into every night before work blues, and I would get this intense anxiety prior to going to work. It was really funny that though, you know, Hayley, because I would panic about my capacity to do my job, and then I’d get in the room with the client. And that unconscious competence would just take over and I was fine. And I would get to the end of the session and go, what are you so worried about? Like, you’re fine, and yet, I just didn’t have the tolerance. So my frustration tolerance narrowed to the point where checking my inbox would make me incredibly worried, I would get very scared about what was waiting for me in my emails, I didn’t want to answer the phone. I just had no emotional leeway, no bandwidth left to cope with anything unpredictable. So if my notes were subpoenaed, you know, like something we deal with all the time, in clinical practice, I would get a letter from a solicitor and I’d go, oh, like, oh, my god, and my notes. Honestly, I’m a recovering perfectionist, my notes, nothing to worry about and yet, I would panic. And so what I then did was, I started to bandaid. And this is where I want listeners to look out for.
Because it can work. Like you said, there are ways to make alterations. So what I did was, I was like, I would just take more holidays, and the holidays would be more dramatic. So I went to Africa, you know, like, we’re talking like, very intense, amazing holidays. And then that didn’t work. So I would return and I’d be okay for a while. And then I would return to the same state. So what I would do then is I did less days. So rather than doing five days a week, I started doing four days a week. But I will do the same hours in those, the same amount of hours that I used to in five I’d do in four.
Hayley Quinn
So it’s like you’re tricking yourself?
Rebecca Ray
Like massaging like, surely this will convince her that she’s okay. And for a while, a three day weekend actually really did work for me, because there were a couple of days off and one day to do errands and it was fine. And then until it wasn’t.
So what I then did was reduce my hours.
The anxiety was actually really prominent. So I would wake up in the morning and just feel sick and just feel like I couldn’t concentrate. I had to, there was a lot of management that was going on. So at the time, I was taking my dog to work and just for Henry’s mental health we would go for a walk anyway. So I’d get up at like quarter to five and walk in for an hour in the morning and be at work by 7am. And the exercise was great. But then I had to start walking twice a day to manage the anxiety. And that’s when I started thinking there’s a lot of management going on, that seems to be excessive.
So I had a conversation with a colleague of mine, we went out to lunch. And he said to me, if you don’t stop, something’s going to happen to you that will force you to stop. And I said, I can’t stop because I have bills to pay. And he said, how much equity do you have in your home? And I said, that’s bullshit. I have worked so long to build up the equity in that home I don’t want to touch it. And he said, Well, hold on, what’s the story you’re telling yourself about? The fact that you can’t touch that equity? Why not? And I said, because that’s me failing. I’ve worked to create this financial kind of stability. I don’t want to eat into that. And he said, sometimes we need to create an empty space before we create what will fill it.
Hayley Quinn
Yeah, absolutely.
Rebecca Ray
That was on the 15th of January 2015. And two weeks later, my clinic was shut. Yeah, because I also said to him, how do I get out of this?
He said, you rip the bandaid off. Because otherwise you’re going to make it too difficult for clients and you’re going to make it too difficult for yourself. So that’s what I did. And then you’re gonna laugh at this, so I did that, but I always had it in the back of my head, but I’d go back like there was no, I just couldn’t make it permanent because of my grief state about it. And so I was like, no, I’ll be fine after a break. And so I took 18 months off, and then I kind of had to go back because we were planning on having a baby secretly, we didn’t tell anyone but to make a baby when you’ve got two months costs money. Yep. And so I went back to clinical practice part time. And I thought, okay, new town, we’d move to a new town, new practice part time, I’ll be fine. Like, it’s fine. I’ve healed no, she had not healed in any way, shape, or form. And so even when I got to the point where I was doing, oh god, I would say maybe no more than four people a day and I used to see 10 a day.
I would only do two days a week, and those days would be separated by days off. It didn’t work, Hayley, like I got to the point, I was like, What is wrong with you like you were doing such a fraction of what you used to. And yet, those psychological scars were in place, and they weren’t going anywhere.
Hayley Quinn
I have this urge to say to health professionals listening, please don’t see anything like 10 clients a day.
Rebecca Ray
And that’s what I’d say, Oh, my goodness. What’s even worse is I would say that to my supervisees. were practising like that. I wouldn’t be like, what is wrong with you? Actually, I wouldn’t say like that.
Hayley Quinn
That’s a recipe for crashing and burning, isn’t it?
Rebecca Ray
It is, but I justified it because I wasn’t seeing 10 people a day until I reduced my days back. So I justified it by going well, I’d rather see 30 people in three days than 30 people in five days, because I have those couple of days off. But it’s not okay. Like, and so yes, I’m taking responsibility for all of this, I created this, because I bought into various narratives in my head.
There was no grief at that time, because the transition to parenthood was so huge anyway, that it kind of helped me to process all of that. But what’s happened since is I’ve managed to create a job that doesn’t feel like a job. So I’m now so fulfilled, that I couldn’t imagine doing it any other way. I get to work from home and have my dogs beside me and just do stuff that feels so deeply satisfying but that fits with my energy resources.
Hayley Quinn
Yeah, absolutely. But it’s interesting is that because it’s really being on the lookout for the stories that we’re holding onto how much we’re wrapping up in our identity, what we do, and then really kind of being on the ball around, how am I tricking myself, like, oh, I’ll just cut my days, but I’ll put all the clients from that other day into the day that got left. I mean, that’s just, that’s not helpful, right? That’s like, okay, so you’re tricking yourself there. Keeping an eye out? What am I telling myself? And what am I doing? That actually is not very helpful at all?
Rebecca Ray
And where are my double standards? What’s okay for me, but I would say it’s not okay for someone else. That was happening a lot. There was a lot of stuff that I would be so much kinder to other people about, and so much gentler. And yet, I was incredibly rigid and harsh when it came to myself.
Hayley Quinn
And I know this is asking to simplify it because you know, burnout and all that goes with it is a complex issue and it’s not something that’s easily fixed. Like you say it takes years. Often, it is insidious. You know, I’ve spoken with people who used to say, you know, do you think you might be feeling burnt out? Oh, no, I’m fine with my clients, no problem in the client work. It’s like, yeah but you’ve got nothing left for anybody else. You don’t want to spend time with your children. You don’t want to talk to your partner when you get home. You haven’t got energy to go to the supermarket. So you dial in UberEats and get food delivered. It’s that kind of stuff. It’s like no, no, no works fine. But actually your work takes over your life.
Rebecca Ray
And also your works fine, because you’re making sure your works fine, because we have a standard of practice that we must adhere to. Yeah, you’re then compromising everything.
Hayley Quinn
At the expense of the rest of your life. So if people were finding themselves well, they’re sort of clear.
You go off, actually, I think I might be burnt out or absolutely no, I’m burnt out. What do you think have been the most helpful things for you? And I know that sort of simplifying it, but what would you say to that?
Rebecca Ray
Everything’s simplified in a podcast episode. So I get it. We’ve short amount of time. So honestly, I think my relationship with myself track changed so much, I am a different person.
Hayley Quinn
I can relate to that.
Rebecca Ray
So for that, I almost, I almost need to say that I’m not sure I would have arrived here to be the person I am today without going through that. But I would also say that other people, please don’t go through that because it’s incredibly painful. But the thing that changed most was, I really took responsibility for the way I related to myself. So I made a decision that nobody was coming, like I could continue being so horrible to myself, or I could not, I had a choice around that. And so I started being gentle. And I took all the evidence I had that no amount of whipping myself was going to work. Sure it got me a bank account, that was comfortable, it got me a referral base where I didn’t have to advertise for 10 years, and my books were closed. But those weren’t the things that added value to my life. And so the first thing was self kindness, just being able to transition my relationship from one of being so incredibly abrasive to one that was a cushion between me and the rest of the world that my opinion about me actually counts in that opinion is really good now. And then the second thing was actually being able to transition my mental state from how it should be to how it could be. So I, I don’t know whether I did this consciously Hayley or whether I did this because I had to because I kind of leaped before anything was created. So I just had to figure it out. Because I’d given myself no choice. But I think about what happened when I look back and reflect on what I shifted from, well, if I’m not doing clinical practice, then what else is available to me? And at the time in Australia, there was no psychologist set online. So I had no, no or certainly no one with huge followings. And so I didn’t really have anyone to model anything off. It’s not like I looked out when I’m gonna do what Jane Doe was doing, who’s a psychologist who’s doing stuff online, I simply just thought, well, that’s a place where I can access a large audience to potentially use the wisdom and experience that I have for good, so I’ll try it. I think that second part is from a place of self kindness, giving myself permission to try and to see what happens. I mean, honestly, I still live on a daily basis where everything is uncertain, because I now work on a project basis. But if I didn’t actually create that space, then I wouldn’t have gone looking for these opportunities that currently arrive on my desk now. So in its simplest form, self kindness, and then possibilities. I used to be very rigid, like, I used to have to know what my future was gonna look like. And that’s actually really easy when you’re in clinical practice. Your life is gonna look like more of this, you know, more of a diary that looks like that. Whereas when I wasn’t doing that anymore, I was like, where’s the money gonna come from? Because we live in a capitalist society. I’m not a monk on a mountain. So how am I actually going to fund this? And how am I going to do it in a way where I can have a nap in the middle of the day if I need to? Because let’s face it, I’m 43. Now I don’t have stacks of energy available, and nor do I want to have that amount of energy available for work. So it’s just allowing it to look different.
Hayley Quinn
And I think, you know, coming back to the self kindness piece, I think when we bring self kindness and self compassion into our life, we see more possibilities. But then we also allow ourselves to make different choices. which can lead to all sorts of wonderful things, right?
Rebecca Ray
Yeah, it’s so much easier to accept the fear when you’re allowed to show up authentically and you’re allowed to explore rather than having to have some kind of guaranteed outcome before you take that step.
Hayley Quinn
It’s absolutely a practice every day is so impressive, isn’t it? But I think when you can bring that practice into your life, it really can make a huge difference. Even on the little things, you know, on that choice making and, you know, daily choice making, what am I going to sort of tune in and listen to about what I need today. And people hear this from me all the time, it’s a convert. But you’ve written numerous books now, including the very popular Setting Boundaries. That just went off like a rocket.
Rebecca Ray
It’s the bestseller in the Australian space now, which I’m very excited to say.
Hayley Quinn
hat’s so cool. And your new book, Small Habits for a Big Life? What have been your own biggest learnings through writing these books?
Rebecca Ray
Look, this is gonna sound like this is how I run my life, probably is the way I run my life, I basically learn how not to do it, to learn how to do it. I used to write from a place of drama. Like, honestly, I was the most intense drama queen about it. And what I’ve learned is that when you’re creating anything, if you’re creating a course, or a podcast episode, or whatever it is that you’re creating, it will get created with the drama, or without it. Again, that’s a choice, right?
Hayley Quinn
It takes less energy without it.
Rebecca Ray
I don’t know whether I had by-osmosis from the media absorbed the kind of tortured artist narrative, and therefore lived into that, before I realised that I just have a choice around this, like, I can make it difficult. And I can whinge about it and I can push up against a deadline before actually taking action. Or I can just do it. And so over time, I think what happened is I just got so busy that I now don’t, and I became a mum. So that’s different, too. And now I just don’t have the luxury of dramatics. I just have to sit down and do the thing, because I’m on a deadline, and there’s a company relying on me, and we need to get it done. So in terms of the process, I think I’ve learned that it takes far less energy to do the work without drama than what it does. If you’re going to be a bit of a, you know, emotional, melodramatic Queen about it. Yeah, I’ve also learnt that as much as I don’t like the process. So for those listeners, I’m currently writing my sixth book, and I don’t like writing. So Hi, I’m Rebecca Ray, does not love being an author, but I love the outcome. So what I’ve become really good at is being able to get through the laborious part by focusing on how much I love making my work accessible for people that can’t afford therapy, because I think therapy is a privilege. Even in Australia, when we have such a great healthcare system, and you can access free therapy for 10 sessions, sometimes 10 sessions aren’t enough. And I love the idea that someone can go and buy a book for 30 bucks, or even less if you’re buying from Kmart and Big W and Target. Hint, hint. That’s where you’ll find my books at good prices. You can be able to access all the things that I would teach clients previously in therapy sessions, and ensure it doesn’t, you don’t necessarily have that one on one individual tailored approach that you would get from therapy, but it’s still super valuable. So I found kind of cognitive ways of massaging myself through the process in a way that allows me to do something really hard like going from a blank page one to 65 or 70,000 words later to get it done.
Hayley Quinn
So it sounds like you kind of focus on the outcome. And then you go gently with yourself through the process as best you can.
Rebecca Ray
I do and I also know certain things about the process that I couldn’t have known beforehand. So those certain things are, I always get to a point where I hate it, so there will be, it’s probably two thirds of the way through where I stop and go, I promised I would write a book on this and am I even meeting that promise? Like is it, sometimes even stop and go have I even written on the topic like so close to the work that I can’t see the forest for the trees? And that’s when I hate it. I think I can’t do this. I’m gonna have to tell the publisher I can’t deliver like this. There is a mini meltdown used to be massive but now it’s just like a day and I’ll go oh, I must be nearly finished then. If I’m experiencing that, and I also know that for me, I need to write in the morning so everything unless I’m like a week away from the deadline and just finishing up some stuff. Yeah, everything is written before 12pm. Because my brain doesn’t work for hard tasks after that. So I’ve learned to hack my circadian rhythms around that. And I’ve also learned that there’s a period, like now we’re six weeks out from the deadline. So we’re about to go into a really intense time where my social media will probably be inconsistent. And there’s no more interviews that are booked in during this time, I don’t do anything extra. Because that’s the most important thing. And that’s where my head stays. So there is a very intense period where I’m right in the book, and I don’t allow myself to be pulled away. And they’re all just like little process things that I now understand so much about how I create that. I not only make space for them, but I also really embrace that process as being just what works for me.
Hayley Quinn
Yeah and what I’m hearing in that area is it’s about that relationship with yourself, isn’t it, it’s about understanding yourself, knowing the things that are helpful or not helpful. And whether that’s in creative endeavours, whether that’s in the way you run your practice, whether that’s how you work for an employee, an employer, sorry, it really is getting to know ourselves, isn’t it, allowing ourselves the time to build a good relationship with ourselves so we know what works and what doesn’t. And then you can make the choices for yourself around that.
Rebecca Ray
Even doing the hard things, right? When I’m doing a lot of writing, my back hurts. My neck hurts, my shoulders hurt, because I’m spending lots of time in a chair. And so I know, as much as my brain will go where I have time to do anything else, like nothing. All we can do is sit and stare at their computer screen, that it’s even more important that I walk the dog and I walked the dog for a bit longer than I normally would because my body needs it in order to be able to cope with the hours that I’m putting in at the computer.
Hayley Quinn
Absolutely. Yeah. tuning in and listening isn’t it? Listening to that wisdom. So as a busy professional woman, and a wife and a mum, I’m sure you like all of us have days that you find things to be challenging. What do you find your biggest challenges in terms of taking care of yourself?
Rebecca Ray
Probably the biggest challenge is I have some leftover perfectionism when it comes to health habits in particular. So it’s really interesting how perfectionism is no longer part of my identity at all. Except in this area. So I’m so good when I create. I’m so fast now. Like write the caption, get it out there, write the newsletter and get it out there? I don’t, I don’t even think twice. Even with my manuscript because I know so intimately the editing process now. I’m not at all upset about what I send initially, because I just know it’ll get massaged. I love being edited. It’s such a powerful process, but it always makes my work 1000 times better. Honestly, from someone that’s been on the other side, being edited is the most wonderful thing. Leave it up to them. It’s not your job. But what’s left over is oh, this is a hard one and I’m working on this consciously and have been for quite some years now. Sometimes successfully and sometimes not. Sometimes I decide that unless I’m walking for an hour six days a week and I may as well do nothing. Unless I’m drinking three litres of water a day then I may as well drink none. Like two glasses is not better than three litres therefore I’ll just drink none.
Hayley Quinn
It’s so common isn’t it?
Rebecca Ray
Right? It’s so and it’s very entrenched and the way I try to be gentle is I was raised by a mum and two grandmothers who had very toxic relationships with their body. My mom is on a diet permanently. And that means she’s either being good or she’s being bad when it comes to food. And I’ve actually never heard her talk nicely about her body and I’ve never seen her model that you can be curvy, model I mean in terms of demonstrating that you can be curvy and be okay in your body. And so I put on a stack of weight in fertility treatment and then having a very traumatic pregnancy with Bennett, Bennett was fine, but my experience of pregnancy was horrid. The worst physical experience I’ve ever had. And then I got super busy with running a business. And so as much as I’ve adjusted to being a mom and I have a successful business now that I love very much, the last thing that’s left over is my body. How do I, how do I come back to my body, and reintroduce these healthy habits that fit with where I want to be? And honestly, Hayley, I don’t know the answer, I’m still working on using all of the strategies that I have, that I know, from a cognitive perspective and a clinical perspective, but also that I know work for me sometimes, and I’m yet to land on something that’s consistent as someone who’s actually shines with consistency from a business perspective. And from a content creation perspective, and all that kind of stuff. I’m, I’m not yet consistent enough with who I want to be for myself. So I would say that emotionally, I’ve nailed it, because I just had a whole stack of branding photos done. And I can look at that photo, those photos and go, you’re just so happy. Like, I look and see the joy in my soul. And once upon a time, like in my 20s when I used to go to the gym, like seven days a week, I would look at that and go, oh my god, look at that roll. Whereas now I’m like, you are just the happiness that radiates out of you is priceless. So I can do that now. But practically, the biggest challenge for me would be letting go of that perfectionism so that I can introduce imperfect habits that are better than no habits rather than swinging between this. Yes, she’s on track, like she’s swimming six times a week. And then she walks the dog in the afternoons drinking four litres of water a day, like, calm down. Apparently I can’t. I’ll let you know when I can.
Hayley Quinn
Watch this space.
Rebecca Ray
That’s right. Well, I also can’t say it any other way. So I’m never going to end up on your podcast, having a chat and not be transparent about that. Because it’s really important for me to know that our listeners don’t feel ashamed if they’re feeling the same way. Like, I believe that you can be perfect in every area. And these challenges show up at different times. My health was once nailed, like, I spent so much time caring for it and now in this new season, I’m trying to adjust to finding a way that fits for me. I haven’t quite landed on it. So it just is what it is. Right? I’m a work in progress.
Hayley Quinn
It’s a practice, isn’t it? We’re getting in the group this morning where we’re talking about that. And one of the participants said, you know, I’m doing it, but I’m not doing it perfectly. And I’m like and never will, right. Never will. This is an ongoing practice of how do we be human and navigate this world? And all that’s in it? And when I don’t do things, the way I know would be helpful. How can I be compassionate rather than critical? I know, I certainly struggle with that health thing. I did a couple of reels the other day around, like, how do people stay consistent with that? Because I don’t know. But then used to be, you know, full on gym twice a day almost waiting,. So it’s complex, we’re complex little beings. So given all that, again, I’m gonna get this ball down to this one question and just say, with all your knowledge and expertise and everything you’ve lived for you, what would be one piece of advice, like, what’s the one thing you think, ah, that’s what I only ever had one thing left to say in the world. That was a bit dramatic.
Rebecca Ray
If I only had one thing that I could share, it would be to consistently check in about whether or not you’re giving away your choices about how you live this one life that you’ve been given to someone who’s not you. So that would be and that is my practice to constantly come back to, am I living the way that I want to live rather than bending myself or turning myself inside out? Because I want to please somebody else because I think that’s the way I should do it?
Hayley Quinn
Yeah. How often are you giving away your choices for living this one life you’ve been given to other people? Oh, wow. That’s a really good one for everyone to think about how. I always talk to people around me. And what is the motivation for doing that? Like, can you really tune in and ask yourself? Why would I do that? Is it fear likely as it probably is? Spoiler alert.
Rebecca Ray
But it could also be a habit. Sometimes we can spend so much time in our relationships, thinking of others first. And I’m not saying don’t think of others. I’m just saying that when you give from your giving tanks, if you haven’t actually checked in with the resources available, you could end up being burnt out because you’re constantly offering other people energy that you needed for yourself. And that’s a recipe to end up in a place called resentment ville. I don’t live there anymore and I take too much responsibility for my own life. That the question is always, it always comes back to me if I’m in a situation that I don’t want to be in then what did I do to create that situation? And how can I learn from that to make sure that I realign next time so that I’m not in that situation?
Hayley Quinn
Yeah, absolutely. So yeah, I mean, habit could be well, I’ve always done that. I’ve always done that. That’s what my mom did. Or my dad did, or that’s what I watched my aunt or my grandparent or my caregiver or whoever do.
Rebecca Ray
Yeah and because I’ve always done that, that’s what people expected of me. One thing I cover in Setting Boundaries quite a lot is sometimes one of the difficulties that comes with setting boundaries for the first time is the reactions that you get from people who were invested in you having no boundaries. You’re almost retraining them and what to expect from you and it is easier to maintain habits, honestly, it is. And the most common comment I get on social media posts, when I put up something about responsibilities, everything’s easier said than done. And I’m like it absolutely. Unless we’re talking about breathing, yes, everything is easier said than done. But when we’re looking at your relationship with your future self, your future self is actually counting on you to make decisions today about how you distribute your personal resources. Otherwise, you’re gonna end up in resentment ville.
Hayley Quinn
Yeah, absolutely. Now talking about your future self. That leads me very nicely into my next question that I ask everybody that comes on, and I really like this one. If you could meet your 80 year old self, what do you think she’d say to you?
Rebecca Ray
She’d say, she’s proud. Yeah, she would. She would say she would say that I’m where she wants me to be. And she would, she would also say some things, to continue trusting and being patient, that all the seeds that I’ve planted will bear harvest at some point. But there’s no amount of forcing that I need to do to make it happen. I’ve done enough, I am enough, I am consistently enough that the opportunities that are in my future will come anyway, I don’t need to be different. I don’t need to be more I am exactly what I need to be. And so in order to be able to see that harvest come the only things I need to practice are trust and patience. That’s where I get the sheets because I do not like patients. Trust is my lifelong lesson. But she would say that wrapped up in being incredibly proud of the human that I have become. And she would also say drink some water.
Hayley Quinn
Did you have a glass of water? I’m working on it. You know, as you’re saying that, and I think that you mentioned before, you used to be very harsh with yourself. And I can certainly relate to that I’ve been extremely self critical growing up. And I think this is why for me, it’s been so profound, bringing self compassion into my life, and changing my relationship with myself. But you know, I imagine if I’d have asked myself and I’m imagining this would have been the same for you. If I’d have asked you that question, 10, 20 years ago, that would have been a very different answer hey?
Rebecca Ray
Almost breaks my heart.
Hayley Quinn
Yeah and to get to this place where you can say, you know what, my eighty year old self would actually say, I’m proud of you and you are enough. And all that you do is enough. Makes me feel teary.
Rebecca Ray
Yes, the thing that’s most profound is I believe that now.
Hayley Quinn
I feel it.
Rebecca Ray
Yes, I might have been able to say the words 10 years ago, but they would have only been intellectual. And then even prior to that, oh, little girl like you don’t need to try so hard. You can have a asleep in it’s okay. Now, perhaps this is about parenting as well and maybe the fact that I’m a late parent. So I had Bennett when I was 38, I think or maybe I turned 39, the month after heading was quite late. And I think in being so conscious about who I want to be for him, I’ve started being who I needed as a parent. I’m just so much better at parenting myself, because there’s a little being that he’s four and a half now he can’t self regulate, you know, it’s only four and a half. He can sometimes but you know when he loses it when he’s just being challenging in some way, my approach to that is always you don’t have a left prefrontal cortex that’s wired like I don’t expect anything more of you. And yet as a child, so much was expected of me. And if I was at all emotional, that was very inconvenient. I was too much. And so my own experience now it’s just so it’s so much nicer to be me. It’s so much nicer in my head. And maybe that’s a function of what Bennett has given me the gift of being Bennett’s mum, is that my relationship with who I am is I’m a really lovely parent to little me now.
Hayley Quinn
Yeah, I can really relate to that with my adult boy now.
Rebecca Ray
Parenting is a ride, isn’t it? Like, it teaches us so much about ourselves?
Hayley Quinn
And continues to. My son’s an adult and so it continues to but it’s yeah. This has been so lovely.
Rebecca Ray
Thank you for asking such great questions as well. I love you know, I do interviews all the time and so sometimes we end up just talking so much about strategies, you know, people get me on interviews and say, can you give us some tips for when people struggle with X psychological concepts, but it’s really nice to just get real and talk emotionally about life.
Hayley Quinn
This is my hope for the listeners is that, you know, we are humans in the therapist chair. And I think hearing from other practitioners or people that have been practitioners and working in other areas. And other, you know, fellow humans can just be really normalising and really validating and hopefully, people, you know, learn something and can make some choices in their lives that are going to be helpful, not only for them as practitioners, and hopefully, to be able to sustain what it is they have worked so hard to do, but also as, as human beings in all domains of our lives because it’s, it’s tough out there, right? Being a human being with a tricky mind.
Rebecca Ray
Let alone being a human being with a tricky mind helping other human beings with their tricky minds.
Hayley Quinn
Families with humans with cheeky minds. And yeah, wow. Like, who signed up for all this? But anyway. So can you tell us a little bit about any current projects that you’ve currently got going? I mean, you’re saying you’re heading into this kind of pointy end of the book and I’m really grateful and feel very lucky that I got you just in time before you are sort of like head down and not doing any more interviews.
Rebecca Ray
Yes, I’m writing book number six. And most of my books have been quite short. So what happened with Pan Macmillan was they actually started testing me out on a month. And so that was with small gift books that aren’t all that long, didn’t take all that long to write. But Setting Boundaries was a long, big book. And the next book is the same size of Setting Boundaries. So, I’m in the writing phase for that and it’s tough. I never quite know how books are going to turn out until I’m actually in the playdough making phase, where I’m shaping it. And so that’s where my head’s at right now. That book will be out, I imagine at the end of June in 2023. And so in between now and then I’m just continuing my mentoring in my Intentional Business and I am just making sure that the opportunities that come towards me aren’t taking me away from where my head needs to be right now. So having the manuscript down is my last huge thing for 2022. And 2023, for me, will not be writing a book. So this year, I know you’re gonna laugh at me.
I said to you last year, I was never going to write two books in one year and this year, I will have written four by the time we get to the end of it, because I know right, you’re looking at me as if to say, I don’t believe all the things you’ve just said in this interview about you doing less. One book was originally an audible podcast, Small Habits for a Big Life started as an audible podcast, if you’d like to listen to that. It’s called Breakthrough, overcome self sabotage, achieve more and be your best self. And it’s free for Audible subscribers. And then Pan Macmillan turned that into a book. So it’s not like I had to write something completely new for them, I just edited it so that was in book form. And then I’ll have another audible release coming out in January, I think. So I prepared for that this year. And I can’t talk about the other thing that I’m writing, because I’m on an NDA. But that’s going to be written this year, as well. It’s a bit smaller. The biggest thing that I’m doing is my next book for Pan Macmillan. So, next year, next year, I’m not writing a book, Hayley, I’m not doing it. I promise you, because my brain actually does need a break. And also readers need a break. So one of the things about creating content is that you ended up with a fan base and people love your work, but I can’t exhaust them by constantly throwing something new for them to read or listen to. So we’re all having a break next year. Okay. We’re just having a break. You heard it first here.
Hayley Quinn
Yes. There are quite a few followers on this podcast. So you have many witnesses to this. You’re not writing? I think you know, we all need breaks, don’t we? We need breaks from our work. We need little mini breaks throughout the day. We need to slow down at times and rest.
Rebecca Ray
The change that has changed with my process, though, is I’m faster now. So being faster with my writing means that there’s less energy that’s required, because I’m doing it for a shorter amount of time, which means that I can also do other things. But also, I noticed that there’s a rhythm to being in a, in a job like I now do in a business. So I take advantage of opportunities as they come. And that means a lot. Sometimes opportunities come all at once. And you need to say yes, but that also means saying no to others. So I’m just really clear now about things that I want to jump on. Because they’re happening right now. And things they’ll go no, we’ll get to that at some other time.
Hayley Quinn
Other opportunities come down. It’s okay to say no to things because I think people can get that, if I have over if I say no, nobody likes me ever again.
Rebecca Ray
And it’s like just someone else will get it and in the gig industry like I’m in now. It does happen. But I just refuse to buy into it.
Hayley Quinn
Good for you. So if people want to find out more about you to get in touch, where can they find you and engage with your work? And I’ll put links on the show notes as well.
Rebecca Ray
My online home is rebeccaray.com.au. And I’m on the socials as @drrebeccaray, all one word, mainly over Instagram, because that’s where most of my people hang out. I have been hassled to start a TikTok. But I’ve done nothing more than reserve the username. So yeah, look, I’m on the fence about it. You can find me on Audible. So if you just search for Dr. Rebecca Ray, then a few of my books in original podcasts are on Audible. And most of my books are in Kindle and audio format as well. And you can find all my books in lots of places. So my publisher would like me to say they’re in all good bookstores, online retailers. And if your local independent bookstore doesn’t stock me, then ask them to tell them to. Hey, you can generally find them in most places, or check them out.
Hayley Quinn
You’ve put so much wonderful work out into the world. And I’m really really thrilled that you joined me today before your very busy writing period. Thank you so much for coming on. And I’m sure people really enjoy this episode and get a lot from it.
Rebecca Ray
My pleasure. Thank you for being my last.
Hayley Quinn
Thank you Beck.
Thank you for sharing this time with me today, I hope your time here was helpful and supportive. If there has been something in this episode that you have found helpful, I invite you to share it with another person you think might benefit. I’d also love it if you would like to leave a review wherever you tune in. Reviews really help to increase awareness of podcasts, meaning I can spread helpful information more widely. All reviews are welcome and much appreciated as I know they take time out of your day. If you’d like to be notified when the next episode airs, please use the link in the show notes to join my mailing list. Music and editing by Nyssa Ray, thanks Nyssa. I wish you all well in your relationship with Your Self and may you go well and go gently.
Podcast:
Book: Small Habits for a Big Life
Small Habits for a Big Life by Rebecca Ray is published by Macmillan Australia, RRP$24.99 and is available for preorder now and released end of June, 2022.
https://www.panmacmillan.com.au/9781761260735
Audible Original Podcast: Believe: Debunk the Psychology Myths that are Holding Your Back
https://www.audible.com.au/pd/Believe-Podcast/B09W674GYG
Book: Setting Boundaries
Setting Boundaries by Rebecca Ray is published by Macmillan Australia, RRP$32.99 and is available in all good bookstores and online in print, audio, and Kindle.
https://www.panmacmillan.com.au/9781760982423/
Audible Original Podcast: Breakthrough: Overcome Self-Sabotage, Achieve More, Be Your Best Self
Book: The Art of Self-Kindness
The Art of Self-Kindness by Rebecca Ray is published by Macmillan Australia, RRP$19.99 and is available in all good bookstores and online in hardcover and Kindle.
https://www.panmacmillan.com.au/9781760783372/
Book: The Universe Listens to Brave
The Universe Listens to Brave by Rebecca Ray is published by Macmillan Australia, RRP$19.99 and is available in all good bookstores and online in hardcover and on Kindle.
https://www.panmacmillan.com.au/9781760783365/
Book: Be Happy: 35 Powerful Methods for Personal Growth and Well-Being
Be Happy by Rebecca Ray is published by Rock Point, RRP$21.99 and is available in all good bookstores and online in hardcover and on Kindle.
https://www.amazon.com/Be-Happy-Powerful-Personal-Well-Being/dp/1631064894
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Disclaimer
This transcript may not be an exact representation of the audio
