Episode #35 Vulnerability as our Strength with Rikke Kjelgaard
This transcript is computer generated and may contain errors and not be an exact representation of the audio
Hi this is Welcome to Self® and I’m Dr Hayley D Quinn, fellow human, mother, wife, clinical psychologist, supervisor, trainer and coach.
Welcome to Self® is a place where you can come and learn about the practices that assist us as humans, realise that you’re not alone in the ways you struggle, and have your curiosity piqued on various topics as I chat to wonderful guests or bring you solo episodes. This is a place to remember that you are human first and have different roles in your life that need your attention and for that you need to take care of yourself in the best way you can. My aim is that this is a place of nourishment, growth and nurture. A place where you can welcome Your Self.
Hi and welcome to another episode. I’m excited to bring you another great guest for Season 4.
My next guest was such a delight to interview, and we both really enjoyed the interaction which I think you’ll hear throughout the interview. We talk about living authentically in line with values, vulnerability as strength, accepting support from others during challenging times and being cheerleaders for ourselves and others.
It is my pleasure to introduce Rikke Kjelgaard. Rikke is a licensed psychologist, peer-reviewed ACT trainer, an awarded fellow of the ACBS, speaker and chief rock’n’roller in her own business. Rikke is on a mission to help therapists thrive and to be brave and authentic helpers. Trained as a clinical psychologist, she has a 15-year background in the science of human behaviour and the practice of behaviour change. Rikke is a popular speaker at the Scandinavian as well as international stage, and she is known to bring both passion and vulnerability to her talks. She transforms the lives of her audience by bringing evidence-based strategies to her listeners in ways that are palatable, manageable and impactful. Rikke is known to leave her audience in tears with compelling stories from her own life and to create extraordinary interactions between people. We may both have had a few tears during this interview.
I am sure you’re going to love listening to Rikke as we chat together, and I think you’ll find lots to take away from this episode as well. Sit back and enjoy.
Hayley Quinn
So hi, Rikki, thank you so much for agreeing to come on the podcast. It’s really really lovely to see you and finally meet you, whilst online as in person as we’re gonna get. So welcome to the podcast.
Rikki Kjelgaard 3:03
Thank you so much, Hayley. I’m honoured to be here and so happy to see you too.
Hayley Quinn 3:11
So could you please tell us a little bit about yourself? And what it was that kind of drew you to the helping professions just as a kind of brief Who is Rikki?
Rikki Kjelgaard 3:22
Yeah, so. So I’m a psychologist, and I am an ACT trainer. I train people in Acceptance and Commitment Therapy. I live in Sweden. I come from Denmark. And yeah, so I, I have my own company where I work with teaching people Acceptance and Commitment Therapy as a supervisor and a teacher and, and I’m not, I want to say I’m not sure exactly how I got here. But I you know, I know I went to university, but when I was, when I was little, I want to first of all, I wanted to be a fire truck. And then you know, that didn’t happen. But I always knew I wanted to either write so to become a journalist or a psychologist. And I wasn’t sure with you know what to go with, or if I was smart enough or good enough. And so what I did actually was after finishing school, I travelled for just about five years all over the world and gathered a lot of cool experiences. And so I know my parents were pretty worried that I would never get a degree in anything. And so when I came back, I, you know, from that travelling, seeing the world meeting people, I always love to connect with people. I always love to help people reach whatever dreams they have for their life to see people thrive. And so then I decided on psychology and so fast forward here I am today.
Hayley Quinn 5:01
Yeah it’s interesting, the amount of people who say that they wanted to be a journalist and ended up as a psychologist, number of people that do that. But also, it’s lovely to hear when people have taken the more scenic route. I came to psychology later in life as well. And I like to call it the scenic route. I described it differently when I was younger, but now I see it as the scenic route. And I think we can learn so much currently, from those different purposes, instead of just kind of form going along the formal path.
Rikki Kjelgaard 5:35
I’m pretty happy both for myself, but also for the clients that I serve that I had had some experience in life, and not just, you know, going to school my entire life. So yeah, so I too, started late and had a few, well, one child during university and one child after so, yeah, that was the path.
Hayley Quinn 5:57
So last year, I heard you speak on Psychologists Off The Clock and it really is from listening to you that I then reached out and thought, oh, my gosh, I just need to meet Rikki and get her on my podcast. What struck me was your authenticity and courage. Would you mind sharing the story of change that has most impacted you, and has led you to this acceptance of who you are and what you’re doing? Because that’s what I really got from that listening to you on the other podcast was this deep sense of knowing who you are, accepting who you are, and moving forward in the world with that. Is that something you’d be happy to talk about?
Rikki Kjelgaard 6:40
Yeah, sure. And I love this question. And I’m, like, I’m thinking about, I’m not sure this, that there’s this like one story. And I think for me, it’s like, a chain of stories or a chain of experiences. So when I look back on my life, and I also, when I listen to my parents talk about me, I was always like, if you’d say to me, Do not press that red button, like, surely, I would do it. But also in myself, I have a lot of like, I fear criticism, I’m a perfectionist, in a sense, that’s really not working for me often. And so and again, I’m really sensitive to criticism, and I have this this fear all the time of doing things wrong. So on one hand, I’m like, quiet, I think, you know, again, I press the red button, if you tell me not to. And then I’m really scared of the consequences. So it’s a kind of an interesting mix. And the reason why I’m saying this is I want to let people know who listen to that, that you can be everything and not, it’s either this or that. But when I look back at myself, I have always, like, whenever somebody would try to put me down, I would always get incredibly sad, but I was oh, I would also always, I would always think that it’s so unfair. And I would kind of try and stand up for myself. So I’ve seen my life as kind of a serious of me working on setting boundaries, trying to stand up for myself standing up for others, when I was in school, and this is even maybe before I even remember it, but my mom said like if ever there was kind of a weak, I don’t want to say as somebody who was less privileged or bullied, I would take care of that person. So I’ve always had a strong sense of this, like, nobody puts baby in the corner. And so and so what has really, when this was then put to the test, like I’ve gone through a horrible divorce and a horrible breakup, I’ve gone through starting my own company, when leaving another company that was really, really hard on me. So I’ve had so many instances where I have had the opportunity to practice standing up for myself standing up for others. And I think that that may be like what I am there now, or what you see today is the kind of result of that many, many instances of standing up for yourself setting boundaries, and trying to allow others to do the same. Because I think that that’s so important, like the whatever we do in this world, I think we allow others to do the same. Like if I give myself permission to set a boundary, I have also given others permission to do the same. So I’m and I’m hugely into this, like practice what you preach as a psychologist like that we psychologists do that or, you know, use the strategies that we invite our clients to use as well.
Hayley Quinn 9:53
Yeah, absolutely. So this ongoing practice throughout your life or have kind of an ongoing practice, recognising things, setting boundaries with other people.
Rikki Kjelgaard 10:08
Yes, and then being absolutely scared while I do it. So there’s one, you know, I remember when I got I was in the middle of divorce, and we were moving our children from, you know, our house to two houses now, like might mean an apartment and my ex-husband and his new house. And at the same time I broke, you know, I decided to leave the company I was in, due to a variety of reasons. And so I was divorced, divorcing, heartbroken, and started to start my own company. And I remember being in this apartment, and, you know, getting, reading bedtime stories for the kids, and then crying all night, painting the walls by myself, and being an absolute mascot, getting them to school, and then trying to do a little work centre, my first invoice and all of that. And I felt like I was a complete mess. And it was like spaghetti for five days in a row. Like, you know, it was really, really, I was struggling. And then fast forward. Just a year after my son. You’ll hear me talk about my children all the time. They are my little gurus. My, my son had a conversation with somebody else, where somebody, he, he came to me at a conference in Canada, and somebody asked him about his mother. And I was like, and he said, like, what is what is it like to have Rikki as a mom? And I was like, oh, looking back? What will you know, the few years we just had where I was a complete mess. I wonder what, what he’s gonna say. And what was really beautiful, and is really moving that he said, the cool thing about my mom, is the way she gets up, when life knocks her down, and I was like, That’s it. That’s it. That’s that. That’s what I can teach people right? That I can, because life will knock you down. And life. Not like it happens to all of us. It doesn’t matter. Like, it’s the human condition, isn’t it? And so, I that’s, I think that’s, that’s my kind of motivation to and that’s my passion. That’s my heart’s mission to help people get up because I like if I could, I would, nobody would ever fall. But that’s not realistic, isn’t it? So helping people get up when life knocks you down? And I have done that. And, and so it’s like, and it’s not like, so you got up and then you stay up, like it’s getting up every getting up one more time that you get fall down.
Hayley Quinn 12:51
I think you make a really important point that you know, you can be doing this, you can be practising these things and be really scared. And that life, yes, doesn’t necessarily look pretty, it can look really messy, can look really ugly. That can be long, gone. And you can still practice even just the small steps. You work from Acceptance and Commitment Therapy perspective, and you do a lot of work with other helping professionals teaching the skills to them professionally and personally. And so important, isn’t it that we do walk the talk when it comes to what we’re doing with our clients? So how has the training in ACT kind of changed things for you in the way you work? And what has that particularly done for you personally?
Rikki Kjelgaard 13:46
I think and this is kind of sound very vague, and but it and it is very big. I think it has literally changed my life in the way that I have through the ACT model. Kind of it wasn’t until I found that ACT model that I understood that life is not about kind of fighting things you don’t want, but rather allowing difficult thoughts and feelings and making room for making room for that and navigating towards the life that you want. So I didn’t I haven’t I don’t think I’d had that really that conversation with anybody before I came into ACT about what kind of life is it that you want to live what is important to you, how would you like to be towards others? How would you like to be towards yourself? So in that so now just as an example, I gave you the the example of the situation where I was heartbroken divorcing all of that. I really thought about like how do I want to go through this, like what how if this is hard and my heart is broken, and I’m in physical and I’m in mental pain, I’m just like I feel broken, how would I like to show up for my children? How would I like to show up for my parents, my, my friends and everybody. And that helped me. It did not take away any pain. But it helped me to navigate how I was and how I interacted with people close to me and the world in general in that time, and I’m not sure I would be able to do that. And even when it comes to my ex-husband, so, you know, we had a few years where it was like, there was no very, very little communication. And when there was any communication, it was not very, it was not particularly friendly. And I remember really, really saying to myself, Who, who do I want to be as his ex-wife? Who do I want to be towards the father of my children. And he was in a, I don’t want to say anything bad about but he was in a different place. And he he was more, he was more, he was navigating more from a place of anger. And so I have so many friends who said, how do you keep inviting him? How do you keep being kind to him, although he’s like, he’s giving you shit back. And this is so important, because I said, He does not deserve that. But I deserve it. Like he does not deserve maybe, that I’m kind and gentle, but I deserve to be kind and gentle. And so for, for two and a half years, I kept showing up, I invited, I bought gifts for Father’s Day, Christmas, birthdays, everything. And they were sometimes sent back and sometimes on open and all that kept showing up. And one day he accepted the invitation. One day, he came over for a cup of coffee. And then he came over for and now today, not many people know this, we’re like, we have dinner every week, we spent Christmas and New Year’s together. So me and my partner, my ex-husband and his partner were like today like for parents, around our children. But that I think what is one of the one of the most, I think beautiful examples of how this affected my life. And it took for me to keep showing up with open arms and being kind and gentle person because that’s who I want to be. And it took for him to accept the invitation and to kind of let go of anger and step into this new relationship with me. So I think that is one of the biggest areas, especially now that my children see that their parents are hanging out and having fun. And then they they can freely go to my house, his house and and we do things together. So that was one specific example. But I think really like the person that you see, or the person that you meet is a product. I don’t want to refer to myself as a product. But the result I think maybe that’s a better word, result of many choices around who I want to be in this world, how I want to be towards others and towards myself.
Hayley Quinn 18:14
Yeah, so really connecting in with your values and what a gift for your children to model that and to get on with your ex so that they’re not dealing with their parents and, and all that goes with that. So good on you. Because that’s not an easy road to walk. So well done. And thank you gift to yourself, because you get to show up and be who you’re comfortable being in the world as well.
Rikki Kjelgaard 18:44
Exactly. And I think that I think that is so powerful. Like in every moment, you can choose who you want to be and how you want to be in this world. And so you can be absolutely overwhelmed by anxiety or anger and grief or grief or anything else. And still you have a choice on how you show up. And I’m not saying I just go out there and grab the world while you were kind of completely lying flat on the floor with grief. But maybe you could take one little small step, make some games it was for me it was literally if I brushed my teeth today, I would have done like one thing that is kind of normal life. So that was the standard, like getting my teeth brushed or something like that.
Hayley Quinn 19:29
And that’s the thing isn’t it is meeting ourselves where we’re at, when we’re going through particularly when we’re going through a really challenging parts in life. It sounds like you and I both share a strong value of authenticity. And I know for me, living our life in the way that I’m speaking and teaching to others is really important and it sounds like it is to you as well. And some of the stuff you know I listened to that story with your ex I’m like that’s amazing and people will be like wow, Superwoman, and I’m sure there’s elements of you that are this amazing super woman. But I also know you’re human. So I’m curious, despite all that learning, what have been some of the challenges because I think it’s important when people listen in that it, it isn’t just this thing of, well, if we practice this, it’s, you’re gonna get to this place where actually it’s gonna get easier. What are some of the challenges with that, whether that’s in that situation or other situations in your life? Are you comfortable to share some of that with us?
Rikki Kjelgaard 20:34
Sure, like, I think that there are many challenges, like, first of all, it’s easier to talk about now than then, when I was in the middle of it, because now things are like smooth and literally, we have, like a family with four parents, four adults around my children. But at the time, like, I was sometimes very pissed off and heartbroken and it felt unfair. And so I had all of that. And I have a strong liberal, I have sometimes say, like a struggle around, because that’s how it feels when, particularly the women in my life kind of stepped up and built a circle around me. So it I have also like, yelled, but not at him, so that he could hear it, but like, so that my friends could hear it. And, and there were very many, many, like ugly parts to that. And so it’s not all just, well, in a sense, it is deciding how you want to show up. But there’s also this like having compassion for yourself and to struggle. And to see that most days, you may show up kindly, and other days, you may not show up at all, or you might show up like as somebody who’s absolutely lost it. And that is okay, like learning from those experiences. And so I think, for me, authenticity is and so that I think that’s what some people see in my teaching, like, can you see your outcry, I’ll tell stories. I’ll talk about what how I feel, I’ll share these personal stories. And people will, I hope they will see me like model vulnerability, courage and setting boundaries and all of that. And I think one of the things because I often get asked about this about authenticity, I think there’s a big difference between, like authenticity, and like, transparency. I think authenticity for me is like showing up, being pretty honest about how you how you feel, and kind of kind of modelling, empowerment and all of that. Whereas I think sometimes transparency is sharing everything, which will work. And I’m saying this, because many people go oh, in order to to be authentic, you have to tell everything, every struggle you’ve had and everything. And then people come into this kind of share oversharing hangover, which is really, really difficult. So I think like, if people were asked, like, how do you practice authenticity, I would say like, choose this again, choose how, what kind of person would you like to be and then show up as her or him? Or are they and that is authenticity, and you don’t have to share or be transparent about everything that’s happening to you.
Hayley Quinn 23:29
What I think is what you want to share, isn’t it? It’s like be authentic, in terms of I want to give of myself to somebody and be exactly my closest circle will get more of me. And exactly somebody who I work with once or twice will get, you know, not a less version, but less of me in terms of what I’m sharing of myself.
Rikki Kjelgaard 23:49
Absolutely. And so I think like to answer I think you said like, what is this? Like, what, how do you handle that struggle? Or I think you asked me something about that. And I think to go back to what we talked about earlier is to get up again, every time you fall, and every time you do something that is completely not the person you want to be come back get up.
Hayley Quinn 24:13
It takes a lot of courage, I think to be out in the world and to share of yourself to be vulnerable to live in an authentic way. And I’m curious, where do you draw your courage from?
Rikki Kjelgaard 24:31
It’s I’m sure. Well, well, I think like you, if I look back on my life, I think that I have always been pretty courageous. So I have I have like I have jumped. Like I did bungee jump and I’ve done like a few things that I would never do now but I’ve always had this I think inclination to do to look at what is really scary. And then could I be with willing to try it. And I think also courage. It’s so individual, isn’t it? Because, you know, for me, it is. The funny thing is that doing a bungee jump? For me, then it didn’t feel what it was scary, but it didn’t feel scary, so much. But today now, like maybe sharing something could feel even more scarier than doing a bungee jump. So I think it’s very, very individual. So courage, I think is all about looking at what like, what scares me and then doing it when it is important. So like, I wouldn’t go and pet a snake, dangerous snake just for just because I do it. So I really choose my moments of courage, with intention. So whenever it feels important, I do it. And I’m also like, I really want to model this to my children, and to everybody around me that if you wait until you feel completely sure that this is a great idea or is completely safe. And in certain situation, you can wait forever, and you know, life is not going to wait for you. And so it’s really, really courage. For me, it serves a greater purpose, both like in my own life, to you know, broaden my repertoire, but really, as a way of being, like, taking the lead for others and tell and showing them that this is possible for you, you’re gonna have to take the set, but I will gladly go like in front of you, or when you need that or next to you when you need that behind you. But showing people that courage is possible. And it does come with anxiety, like, or fear, like, it wouldn’t be courage, I think if there were no fear, so, so I I feel fear a lot. And I choose to, to do things that seem scary.
Hayley Quinn 26:58
So it sounds like values are a big part of that for you, to move you towards that courage, as if this is meaningful to me, is something that fits with my values, then I’m gonna move forward and do it. It also seems, you get to draw some courage from your children, because this is this is what you want to model to them as well. But also, you mentioned this circle of women that have formed around you and support you. And I think, you know, that connection, we’re social beings, aren’t we? I think that connection with others can really kind of hold us up and help us move forward when things are tricky.
Rikki Kjelgaard 27:34
And I think that’s such a big part of it too, that to see that you are not alone. Sometimes I think we may all feel very alone. But I learned like through multiple situations, but I have now slowly turn to ask for help and to receive help. And that I think like I would rather bungee jump with no, no bungee or I don’t know the last, like just jump then then to ask for help or show up vulnerable because and I think that’s I see this in maybe in particular in therapist, like we are the helpers, we’re supposed to be experts and we help others. So it feels like completely outside of our comfort zone often to ask for help. And I think this of course goes beyond people’s profession. But for me, it was so difficult to ask for help. And to allow myself to be surrounded by like, by and in this case, it was women and I will say in my life. It’s there are several humans around me. But in my heartbreak it was the women in my life who just it felt like they built a wall around me. Which was beautiful. beautiful.
Hayley Quinn 28:53
That’s so that you have that as well.
Rikki Kjelgaard 28:59
Yeah. Yeah. And they get to see that they saw the octopods they saw me like sit on the floor with I sat with a backboard bag and box. You know, you have that I guess you have that like a three litres of red wine. Like bingeing on that on my floor, crying. They were like, Okay. And so they sat down with me. And then we sat there, and then you know, they helped me above it. You know, maybe you should take a shower, maybe you should brush your teeth, maybe we should go and get some fresh air and then we’ll go in and we’ll continue with the way and then crying and throwing stuff. But no, so you have somebody who will see that part of you where you are not put together where you’re absolutely maybe not the person you want to be but the person that you are in that moment, and they would hold my hand still and they would not leave me. Yeah, that’s beautiful. And I think that’s a fear many of us has, like if I show up like if they see that part of me they will leave me Let’s say that if you really knew me, you would, you wouldn’t. And so trusting that people who care about you will step up and help you even, even or even, maybe even particularly on your worst days.
Hayley Quinn 30:16
I think you know, you raised before about for helping professionals, reaching out and asking for help can be really tricky. And like you say, not just for helping professionals, but for humans, and depending on our own family of origin, our own life experiences and I think it can bring up a lot of complex emotions. So, you know, for people listening, it’s not as easy as like, well just go ask for help, like, honour that, know yourself, go gently with yourself, because this can bring up a lot of complex emotions, when we’re going against something that feels like something we shouldn’t do. You know, a lot of people can have changed a lot when they’re asking like, I shouldn’t need help. I should know, particularly if I’m a therapist, I should know how to deal with these things, because I’m a trained therapist. But as we know, it doesn’t work. You know, we’re humans, it doesn’t work.
Rikki Kjelgaard 31:05
I know, I love that you said like, we’re humans first. And I think sometimes even for me, it was a bit hard when then my friends who are not? Not all the friends, but this particular group, who was who were the circle of women who stood around me, none of them are therapists. So when they said something, I was kind of evaluating their responses. And I was like, Oh, I would, you know, sometimes I think, I would say this differently. It’s the third like that thing is, it’s hard to receive advice, when you. And this is so horrible to say this, I think it’s horrible to say, but I felt like I knew better. And then also allowing people to give advice in a way that because they’re not trained to give advice in a way that maybe you are as a psychologist, so. And I think that for me, it has evolved to not just ask for help, but also kind of kind of checking in on myself, what kind of help do I need? Like, do I need advice? Do I need somebody to just sit with me? Do we need to go in and just, we have, we have been yelling in the forest and smashing the trees. I’m not proud of this. But we took branches, and we were smashing the trees, that would be the kind of help I needed. And so also, I think that when I teach this to others, asking for help, also thinking about like, what kind of help is it that I need, because some people will offer you something that is kind of not exactly what you need, they would make they offer you some kind of advice, and you’re just hugely triggered by that. And to totally, you know, feel, oh, gosh, that’s not what I asked for. So asking for help, but also thinking like, what kind of help what kind of support do I need and then instructing your, your people to, to kind of, or invite them to give you that?
Hayley Quinn 32:55
Yeah, I was listening to something the other day, and I honestly cannot remember what it was listening to. So apologies to whoever’s information it was. But it was a married couple, husband and wife couple. And they were talking about when there is a problem with something they will ask, do you need comfort or a solution?
Rikki Kjelgaard 33:15
I love that. Simple. Smart
Hayley Quinn 33:19
Do something. It’s like I’m suffering. Okay, what do you need comfort or a solution? Yes, I think we’re fine.
Rikki Kjelgaard 33:29
Exactly. And the thing is that you can teach this to others, my children will do that. Now. They will come to me and they will say, Mom, I need you to listen to this. Or there’s a mom, I need you to give a you know, a solution to this, or something like that. So they will even sometimes I will ask and I think because I’ve asked this question a bazillion times, they will now even in there even when they are asking they will stay will stay they will formulate what it is that they need. And I think this is a skill like we can I see so many people out there and and sometimes especially women, hoping that others will be able to read their mind and give them what they need, which I totally understand. But if we want something we’re we’re going to have to ask for it. And support is such a it’s such a abstract word. So what kind of support we are looking for what kind of help or what kind of whatever. And the more we can be very specific about that, the more we are giving ourselves opportunity to be helped the way we need to be helped or to be supported or whatever it is that we need.
Hayley Quinn 34:44
Absolutely slowing down and tuning in and asking that question of ourselves. Do I need comfort do I need support, as well with stuff of, you know, what internal resources do I have that I can draw on? And also what resources do I need to go and seek out? As well as going to somebody and saying, Actually, hey, Rikki, I’ve got this thing going on, can you help me and this is what I’d find really helpful, which it takes courage for somebody might go, I’m not going to help you, or I want to help you in this particular way. Because, you know, people don’t always want to do what you want. So again, it takes vulnerability, that willingness to be vulnerable, and the courage to ask the questions, both of yourself and of other people.
Rikki Kjelgaard 35:32
Yes, and I love what you’re saying, I think, also the courage to keep asking and then finding out, because one of the things that I have found out in my life, and I think this will ring a bell with most of you is that sometimes we are asking the wrong people, like, I could ask a fish to climb a tree, like from from now until Christmas, and it will not be able to do that. So in my life, I have people that I know like, this person will not be able to give me that, but it they will be able to give me something else. So also finding also like realising you are not asking too much. But you may be asking the wrong person. So who can you go to and who can you go to who will give you what you need, and then have kind of a variety of people around you, that could help you in different ways. I have a particular person in my life who always gives advice, and it’s not very welcome. But I see that this person loves me. And that’s like, that’s how they show that. And so I’m like, I’m seeing it, I’m not listening to the advice. But I am seeing that this person genuinely is caring for me in this moment. So I’m just like receiving the love, but not taking the advice, per se. And one of the things like if I could ask people to do one thing after this, which this is something I found really hard, but very helpful. Ask for a hug. Like, It’s so amazing. Like it when you are having to like go to your partner and say, I need a hug. And or go to your child or invite some my children or do that now they’ll come in and they’ll go, and they’re like, they’re young men now, right? One is driving a car, and they’re both going to the gym, and they are have partners, and you know, there are adult young adults, but they will still come and say, I need a hug. And then we have a rule of our house, we drop everything. And we hug like so. And just the power of that, like stepping outside of words, and just putting your arms around each other. That’s an invitation to anybody who’s listening.
Hayley Quinn 37:46
Yeah, absolutely. And you know that there are humans who don’t like the hugs. And I think about what it is for, for yourself. If it’s not a hug, what is your equivalent of a hug? And ask for that instead?
Rikki Kjelgaard 38:02
Yeah exactly. I love that.
Hayley Quinn 38:05
On your website, I noticed you call yourself chief change maker. I like that. And you certainly seem like a leader within your field, what would be some words of advice that you’d offered to others, and particularly to those who identify as women about stepping into a leadership role in their own lives?
Rikki Kjelgaard 38:29
This, I love this question. And I think, again, this comes down to what we’ve talked about the courage to lead, and I think nobody, well, maybe it will happen, but rarely, somebody will come and say please, could you lead? Or you know, you will, you rarely will get that invitation, you will have to take the lead and you have to like this choice for you to step into that. And I don’t see myself as a leader. I know many people say that, but and then I also hear I just said I am willing to go first I’m willing to take the leap. But I exactly I would just say I’m not where I am because I decided I want to be a leader. But more I want to lead and there’s a for me, there’s a difference between those two, it’s not the role I’m chasing, it’s the inside I want to be somebody’s North Star. I know it sounds very big, but like I want to be somebody who will be willing to step into the dark or to do something difficult. And then allow others to do the same. Yeah. So the advice would be to not wait until somebody gives you permission to lead. So I think rather than writing it thinking like, who’s gonna let me? I’m more like, who going to stop me. So I will go with fear with fear of criticism with all of that. And I will keep going. And I will hopefully inspire others as others inspire me because I think, again, this is not a solo trip. This is a group journey. And so sometimes I need, I might need somebody else to walk ahead of me. I remember, I was I was in Nepal a few years ago, you probably heard me speak about this a lot of in variety of ways. But So just quickly, I was in Nepal, and I was walking, trekking with Louise Hays, beautiful psychologists in Australia. And we were a group and we were walking up this mountain, and it was really, really, there was no air while there were air, but we you know, because of that altitude, it was difficult to breathe. And the guide, the Sherpa guide, that he just walked next, or just right, actually right in front of me. And the thing is, I noticed that he was kind of looking at my body language. And then I kind of tapped into his breathing and his steps. So even though there were no words, but I was just like, I tapped in again to his breathing, I just followed his steps. And I think that that was so powerful for me, I needed somebody to be just half a step ahead of me, and kind of helped me get up that hill. And so I think, sometimes we underestimate, we think that in order to lead, we have to have it all together, and have something very smart to say. And be very articulate, imperfect, that you and me just agreed before this podcast, let’s not be perfect. Let’s not do something wrong. It will, it’s just going to be there. And sometimes. So remember that leading doesn’t have to be putting, you know, being together and being articulate and being smart. Sometimes it really is just breathing. And taking a step. And knowing or being close to somebody else who will then follow.
Hayley Quinn 42:17
Yeah, absolutely. I said before, when you said I’m willing to go first. And I said, That’s the definition of leadership. And I just wanted to actually say, because as soon as it came out my mouth, I’m like, No, it’s not. I think it’s one of those. But I think also, we can lead in the middle, surrounded by people, other people can be going forward, there’s different ways to lead. So I just did want to clarify that that is not what I say is the definition of leadership, that we always have to be the ones kind of in first. But I think you’re right, is that showing up, isn’t it, it’s willing to take some steps, maybe picking up the torch light and shining it so other people can see the path and they might go past you up off the path.
Rikki Kjelgaard 42:59
Exactly. And when that happens, I applaud them. Like, yes, like, you know, see others shine. Like I remember, my parents was like, I was horrible at sports, because I would congratulate the others when they were winning. I was oh, that’s a good, like, I was horrible. My dad was on the sidelines. You know, he wanted me to get into that winning mode. It just didn’t happen for me. And so I think that that’s more of the way I see myself today, when others are shining, when others are having success. Sometimes I will feel envy, of course, but I’m more like happy with them. And I’m like, You go girl, or you go human. I’m just so proud of you. Because this is not a cake. There’s not a cake where there’s like a slice for all of us and or slices for some of us. This is like infinite. And that’s what I love to see people shine and have success doesn’t mean financially could be but having success for me is living the life of your dreams. I love when that happens. Yeah, absolutely. So I think like this, this I think this notion of or deciding not. I like what I said before, can I say that? I think I just said something that I would like afterwards. That not thinking who’s gonna allow me to do this, but more like who’s gonna stop me and I’m gonna get into that mode and decide I’m gonna go for whatever it is. Yeah. That is important to me. Yeah.
Hayley Quinn 44:40
That’s so wonderful. And I think that’s the thing, isn’t it? It’s such a thrill working with people and seeing them make choices based on themselves, getting to know what they want, and then making choices about taking action to live the full of meaningful lives that they want to be living. It’s very cyclical. Oh, absolutely. Now you also have your own podcast Cocktails and Courageous Conversations. What a cool title that is what inspired and motivated you to start the podcast? And what do you enjoy most about it?
Rikki Kjelgaard 45:17
So the thing is that I have always felt pretty outside when it comes to the larger community of my peers. And it’s not like I think I don’t think it’s, it’s that my peers are trying to make me feel like this. But I always I suffer from comparison, is it comparisonitis, like, I compare myself to others. And then I feel like everybody else is cooler and smarter. And everybody else has a PhD and has written a bazillion books and all of that. And so, whenever I would walk around on conferences, I would first of all feel like, oh, you know, I’m not as smart as any of these people here. And I will also hear, like all of these conversations and see all these lectures where it’s a lot of statistics, and there’s evidence, and there’s this and there’s that. And then I would see myself, after all that in the bar, hanging out with amazing people. And this is not about the alcohol because, you know, having a cup of coffee at the bar even. And I talk to people about like, what, what do you care about, like, tell me about. And I thought this is such a cool thing, like when the therapists kind of get off work and hang out in the evening in the bar, they’ll still talk about the things that they’re passionate about their stuff to talk about the book that they wrote, but they do it in a slightly different manner. And I thought, let’s do this. And I thought, but nobody will watch or nobody will want to be my guest. So this was a project where the bar was really set, no, like, I’ll do it and maybe do one episode. And then maybe I’ll do two. And so I know many podcasters I think that yourself, you kind of have a schedule, you come out once a month, or whatever it is. But for me, this is just like whenever I have the time, I interview somebody. So what I enjoy is that to get online, mostly now. And we’ll have a cocktail, and sometimes a cup of coffee, it doesn’t matter. And then I interview people about like what it is that you’re passionate about. So it’s fun to talk with, you know, people that you and me maybe we’ve read their books, and we know they’re kind of their professional, their professional side, and also meeting like kind of the person behind that. So that was the idea. And I really, I really liked that people appreciate it. And for me, it was simply just a passion project. Born out of a bar.
Hayley Quinn 47:48
I mean, let’s face it, lots of good ideas for the most random and places, I still don’t know myself, how come I’m on season four of podcast, how come I’ve got a podcast.
Rikki Kjelgaard 48:02
But then you were pretty awesome, because you keep showing up like you like so you did, I’m guessing you did one episode, and then you did two and then you just kept doing it because it is rewarding for you and for, of course for your listeners and for the people that you invite. So, you know, well done you for showing up and making this change in the world that you’re making.
Hayley Quinn 48:29
Thank you. Yeah, and I think normalising that, you know, getting to a conference and thinking, oh my gosh, everyone’s smarter than me. Everybody’s done a gazillion more things than me. I think most people that walk in conferences, even the people who have done the gazillion things are all thinking that as well. And with the podcasts, you know, listen, and then all of a sudden you have people listening, and
Rikki Kjelgaard 48:51
this is very cool. Yes. Yeah, I think
Hayley Quinn 48:57
I had a supervisor a long time ago before I was practising. And she was somebody who gets huge amounts of grant money and you know, is on different boards around the country. And I can remember going to a meeting with her. And her speaking about how surprised she was that she was asked to be on these things. I’m looking at her thinking, you are a legend. Like what how would you feel like you’ve got impostor syndrome this is but then it was like, Oh, wow, actually, that’s really good. Because that really normalised for me that actually even the people who are out there being really successful. Have these fears and worries lens as well. Yeah. Yeah, we all have it. We. Absolutely. Absolutely. So I’m going to ask you my favourite question that I asked everybody. If you could meet your 80 year old self what do you think she
Rikki Kjelgaard 50:03
Here comes the tears, I think, well I know, if I could meet my 80 year old self. So I think she would say I’m proud of you. Yeah. I think you say I’m proud of you. I think she’d say, you got up. You got up one more time than you were knocked down every time. I think she’d say. You made you made an impact. You changed people’s lives. I’m moved by that. Because I’m overwhelmed by pride right now I feel very proud to say, I think she’d also say, like, if I had if I got to hang out and have a few glasses of wine with her, she’d probably say, like, you should have worked less, travelled more, like all of that. But if I if I just met her briefly, and she’d be kind, I think she’d say, I’m proud of you. For, for showing up even when it was hard.
Hayley Quinn
Gosh I’m sure she would, you have done so much
Rikke Kjelgaard 51:20
What would yours say?
Hayley Quinn 51:26
Oh you’ve turned that on me nobody’s done that before?
Rikki Kjelgaard 51:27
So let’s sit like, let’s meet our eighty year olds together what would yours say?
Hayley Quinn 51:36
Oh, my gosh, well, I think first of all, she’d say, Get over here and give me a hug. I think my eighty year old self would say I love you. You are enough, you’ve always been enough. Yeah. Thank you for staying and doing all the work that you’ve done in the world And like you, I, I feel moved by that because I, like many of us have struggled with many things throughout my life and I have persevered and I have also got up more times than I’ve been down. And I do feel good about the work that I put out into the world. It’s and the best thing for me about it. Not only do I feel good about it, but I’m having fun. I’m having fun doing it. Like getting to have conversations, like this is is just it’s fantastic. Who gets to do this. This is just fun, right?
Rikki Kjelgaard 52:48
So moved by this right now. I know people can’t we can see each other but people can’t see us right now. I’m just like, watching you say that I’m really moved. And I just love that you nobody. Nobody’s asked You that. But the answer you just delivered unrehearsed was very moving. I’m just like, sobbing over here Hayley. And this, this question that and so you know, we’ll use this in therapy and in other instances or in other contexts. But the question about having that perspective, looking back at yourself, I think it’s just so powerful. Just wanted to remind us how powerful it is. Checking in with our eighty year old self and drawing wisdom for that. From that. Again, I’m pretty sure my 80 year old would say, oh, you should you should work less and travel more. And I think that is very valid wisdom, but also connecting with the I love you. I’m proud of you. You were always enough by isn’t that lovely? To meet that ad?
Hayley Quinn 54:03
Absolutely. And I am ACT trained and then found the world of compassion, focus therapy. And as people who listen know that that has been life changing for me. And there’s a time that if somebody else had asked me that, one, I would have said, well, I don’t think I’ll ever get to meet her. And two, I would have said I would never have been able to say you’re enough you’ve always been enough. I love you. I’m proud of you. Like that’s in itself been a, you know, a road to be travelled that I have walked along. And it feels lovely for you to have flipped that question on me at first I was like that’s a bit cheeky Rikki. But I like it. And to be able to have answered that so easily that actually feels really nice, actually so thank you for flipping the question on to me.
Rikki Kjelgaard 54:55
Thank you for sharing I know it’s vulnerable
Hayley Quinn 54:59
I would also say to you as well, given that your 80 year old self would say, you know, work less travel more, I hope that you might reflect on that for yourself before you get to eighty. Exactly.
Rikki Kjelgaard 55:15
Exactly, exactly. I think there’s so much wisdom that don’t wait till you’re 80 to get that, you know, to understand that maybe you should do that right now.
Hayley Quinn 55:24
Yeah, sometimes if I’m going to make a choice, I might actually check in with myself and say, you know, what’s future Hayley think about that.
Rikki Kjelgaard 55:31
Yeah. Exactly. And even going back, I do that a lot as well, I have a picture of myself when I was just little, and I’ll use this in my trainings. So I’m guessing you mostly see clients, I, the clients I see are practitioners.
Hayley Quinn
Yeah I mainly work with practitioners.
Rikke Kjeelgaard
Yeah. And so I’ll have people that bring a picture of themselves from when they were little either like physically or digitally. And even like, talking to your younger self can be so powerful, as well. So I just love this time travelling thing you just did with us. I love that. And I’m really proud of you for sharing and are really proud of you. And I also think what something that you said that is so important Hayley is that the first time we meet our 80 year old self, the story may not be as loving and kind and compassionate. But it’s a skill that we can practice. Like meeting ourselves with that kind of compassion.
Hayley Quinn 56:28
Absolutely changing that relationship that we have with ourselves. It’s well worth it hard work, I think, but well, well worth it. So if people want to find out more about you, Rikki, or get in touch, where can they find you and engage with you and your work? And I’ll put links in the show notes.
Rikki Kjelgaard 56:50
So they’re there. Yeah, yeah. So there are two two main places. So I’m trying, I’m trying to be on social media. And that’s a skill I want to be better at. I’m better at teaching ACT than marketing myself, but so but if you would support me, like, find me on social media, Instagram, and support me there, but my website is my name. So www.rikkekjelgaard.com you can put it in the links. And I also have a Facebook group for practitioners from all over the world. So if you want to come in and connect with me, and this is a place where you can ask questions, or I will ask you questions about values and stuff. So feel free to come and join the Facebook group. And you can put that link, so my website, and rikkekjelgaard.com. And also if you are, so I work in Swedish and Danish as well. So if you come to my main website, you can then choose to navigate to my Swedish website, or my Danish website, I’m multi International ACT person, so my website and in the Facebook group that that’s, that’s where I, I, I live. And also, I can just say as little as I’m not trying to sell you anything. But if you really wanted to connect and learn something, I have what is called the ACT Practitioners Academy, which is the place where people pay a little monthly fee and then each month, I deliver a new piece of training. And each month we have a qQ&Aa. So we get on Zoom, and I ask all the questions that people may have. So that is an opportunity as well. So it’s the actpractitionersacademy.com.
Hayley Quinn 58:29
And I’m glad you said and it saddens me when I hear women and it does tend to be women. I’m sure some men do as well. But it does tend to be women. When you have something to offer the world, and we have kind of been socialised into, don’t really be doing that don’t really tell people what you’re doing. And this thing of not trying to sell you something, actually please do. Because there’s people that need it. So thank you for being brave enough to self market and go you. So anybody who wants to join that and learn more about ACT from Rikki, then go ahead, and I will put those links in the show notes. So finally, before we have to say goodbye, and I don’t really want to end this conversation, but we will have to, if you could distil it down into one piece of advice and I know that’s really quite hard to kind of just have it as one. What would you most want our listeners to take away from our conversation today?
Rikki Kjelgaard 59:30
You have the best questions really. I just love your question. So I think again, this is hard to distil it down what I would say don’t wait, don’t wait for permission to shine you lovely diamond. Go out there and shine the way that you shine and just keep shining. So don’t wait for permission. You have permission like you have permission to live the life You want to? So I think that would be my advice to, you know, get up. I think there are several advice here. I here that but get up every time you get knocked out, which is hard. But don’t. Don’t wait for permission. I think that would be my number one Do not wait for permission. We are holding ourselves back more than enough. There, you know and, and I will be your supporter. Like, if you’re out there listening to my voice Imagine me like cheering for you like a mad person. I would be happy to cheer for you for anybody who listens and needs a little support.
Hayley Quinn 1:00:36
Absolutely. It’s almost like for anyone out there that doesn’t feel they can give themselves permission. You have it right here right now from Rikki and from me. Get out there live the life you want to live and do the things you want to do. And we are cheering, Yeah
Rikki Kjelgaard 1:00:54
We are cheering Yes. Like imagine the most glittery cheerleaders that’s who we are crying from like, I would be the one I would be crying, clapping my hands like sobbing because I’m so proud of you. So please, please shine on your beautiful diamond do not wait.
Hayley Quinn 1:01:15
Fantastic. Rikki, this has just been heartwarming. It’s been interesting. It’s been fun. I’ve loved it. I’ve loved meeting you. I’ve loved chatting with you. I have no doubt that people are going to get a lot from this. It’s just been so great. Thank you so much for coming on the podcast.
Rikki Kjelgaard 1:01:34
You’re very much welcome and I’m always happy to come back. If whenever you need me and I’ll be cheering for you as well Hayley you lovely diamond.
Hayley Quinn 1:01:44
We can just start a massive cheer squad around the world.
Rikki Kjelgaard 1:01:49
A massive cheer squad exactly.
Hayley Quinn
Who wants to be part of our cheer squad.
Rikke Kjelgaard
Yes come join us.
Hayley Quinn 1:01:56
When can we put out an invitation. If you want to be part of the cheer squad, you just find some people in your life and you just start cheering for them and ask them to cheer for you as well. And we can just start this beautiful sense of everybody supporting each other. I’ve had a conversation twice recently you know this rising tide lifts all ships.
Rikki Kjelgaard 1:02:19
Hmm. I love that. I love that.
Hayley Quinn
So thank you again. Beautiful to see you.
Rikke Kjelgaard
Thank you so much for having me here. It’s a pleasure.
Hayley Quinn
Thank you for sharing this time with me today, I hope your time here was helpful and supportive. If there has been something in this episode that you have found helpful, I invite you to share it with another person you think might benefit. I’d also love it if you would like to leave a review wherever you tune in. Reviews really help to increase awareness of podcasts, meaning I can spread helpful information more widely. All reviews are welcome and much appreciated as I know they take time out of your day. If you’d like to be notified when the next episode airs, please use the link in the show notes to join my mailing list. Music and editing by Nyssa Ray, thanks Nyssa. I wish you all well in your relationship with Your Self and may you go well and go gently.
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