Episode #59 Nurturing Your Relationships Whilst Running Your Business with Dr. Yael Schonbrun

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Hi

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Hi, and welcome to another episode. I have another guest episode for you today. And it’s with somebody that’s previously been on the podcast. In fact, she is my first repeat guest. It’s my absolute pleasure to introduce Dr. Yael Schonbrun. Yale is a psychologist and assistant professor at Brown University, and author of Work, Parent, Thrive. Her last episode on the podcast was so well received. And if you haven’t already tuned in, it’s episode 33. I highly recommend that you do. Yale is such a kind, compassionate and beautiful human being that I couldn’t resist getting her to come back on for another chat. She has so much wisdom and knowledge to share. And I know that you’ll get a lot out of this episode. So join me as I welcome Yael back onto the podcast. Hi, Yael. Thanks so much for coming back on.

Yael Schonbrun  02:49

Thank you for having me. I did not know it was your first repeat guest. I’m like really honoured and thank you so much. It was an honour anyway. But this is this is quite something I’m a little flushed.

Hayley Quinn  03:00

I think you’ve just got so much to offer. And what I really thought we could have a chat about today is the impact that business has on our relationships, whether that’s with partners, children, friends, colleagues, whatever it might be, I know that I speak to a lot of business owners where they really notice that either they don’t have the time they might want for their families, or when they do they’re not as present. So it starts to have impacts. So I thought we could have a bit of a chat about that and sort of ask you because I know in your work as a psychologist, I imagine you work with people who own businesses and your own a business yourself. And what are the impacts that you see people are struggling with?

Yael Schonbrun  03:49

Right? Well, there’s there’s many levels of impacts. And I do think, and you made note of this, but one of the primary things is just we have less resources to offer when being pulled in lots of different directions. So if you have a partner, and you have a business and you have children, and you have a friendship group or a spiritual community, you just feel that tug and lots of different directions, and it can feel challenging to figure out how much resource to send to each part of your life. And then you also made mention of this piece of, you know, being present that even and I certainly feel this at the end of a workday, when I’m stepping back into parenting mode, my mind might still be occupied by some dilemma that I’ve had during my professional time. Yeah, and vice versa, right. If I had a tough drop off, and I’m heading into work, it can be hard to really be fully present with patients. And then I think, too, that there’s a lot of challenges. So I do a lot of couples therapy. 

And if you have two people who are working and they have kids, there is often some tension around role delegation. So that is super challenging. And then people might have different ideals of what they want to be working towards so whereas somebody might want to have high aspirations and, you know, be ambitiously pursuing professional goals. Another may want to be pulling back and enjoying the day to day and travelling or so people may be on different pages. So there’s, and those are just a few of the ones. But, you know, I think the more roles that we occupy, the more we get pulled in lots of different directions. And yet, and this is what I talk a lot about in my book Work, Parent, Thrive. It’s not JUST conflict, right? There’s this other side of the coin of enrichment. And I think once we recognise that we have a better time managing the conflict, and amplifying the enrichment. So we can talk a bit about that, too.

Hayley Quinn  05:39

Yeah, like, there’s so many things, just like you say, that’s just a few of the things. It can impact in so many different ways, can’t it, and I guess, you know, to help, I always like to try and let my audience know that they’re not alone in the struggles and challenges that they have. So I certainly speak to lots of people about these kinds of impacts. How common do you think these challenges are for people?

Yael Schonbrun  06:04

Oh, super common. As you said that, I mean, you’re not alone. And I’m sure Haley and I can share our own stories. But one of the first non academic writing I ever did, pieces of non academic writing I did was a piece that I wrote for The New York Times. And this was like something that I wrote, while my kids were napping, I did not think that I was going to write for non academic audiences, but it just had this idea. But it was all about this struggle that I personally had where I had been on a particular trajectory. And my husband had been on board and we had made plans. And then I pivoted after I became a parent, and it had a huge financial impact, because it pulled back a little bit from my professional role. 

And we made it work. But it was stressful, because we had made plans with this idea that I would stay full time after I became a parent. And then when I decided to do something different, it had a huge impact on the way that we’re going to conduct our lives. And, that was, I think, harder for him than for me, because I you know, I was feeling it. And I was really motivated. I had to sort of convince him that this was going to be a reasonable choice for us. So I mean, that’s just one personal story. But I just think it is really, really hard that you have two different people in a relationship, you know, whether it’s your partner or good friends. And as you’re navigating these things, they impact everybody, and people have different ideas of how they want it to go. And yet you have to negotiate together to be on the same page to be growing together in the same direction.

Hayley Quinn  07:30

Absolutely, I think you make a really good point there. And, you know, for you, when you’ve made that decision, you’ve been thinking about it, you were privy to all that information before your husband was privy to that information, right? And I think that kind of raises the point around communication, my husband and I, well, we co own a business together, and then I have my business as well. And we can get really busy. And the thing we always say to each other is like communication is key. If we’re going to be really busy, and we’re going to we’re not going to be focused on the relationship side of things, we need to communicate that.

Yael Schonbrun  08:07

Can I ask you a question? So if you co own a business with your husband, and you disagree on work things, how this is a different issue than communicating about change. But how do you separate the relationship piece from the business piece?

Hayley Quinn  08:18

That’s a really, really good question, actually. And I think, for me, I’m just thinking about this, as I’m answering the question, because I’ve not sort of sat and thought about that. But I think for me, I can compartmentalise things quite well. So when I am talking to him about business stuff, and whilst we co own, he does do the majority of the thinking and decision making. I think when I’m considering business stuff, I do feel like I have my business hat on. 

And then we might do something. And we would do things like when we’re going to discuss business. We do set boundaries around that, like we might be in a particular space in the house, like particularly if we have actually just moved so things are a little bit different now. So that’ll be interesting. We’re in the process of building another house. So over the next little while we’ll we’re kind of in different spaces. So but we would perhaps spend time actually in the office talking about those things rather than on the couch, if we were going to sit in the evening watching television, or we might sit at a table and talk about it. 

So that we’re putting some boundaries around this is actually a business conversation. And that’s not to say it doesn’t leak out into other times. But yeah. Yeah. I love that strategy to sort of put some physical tangible space that belongs to business dealings, and then to have other parts of your house that feel more non business related. And I think that’s a really great way to create sort of this, you know, permeable boundary between your business partnership and your personal partnership. Yeah, can be tricky. Like, many things in relationships, but again, for me, it’s like communication is the key. And then just really finishing those conversations. Okay, are we done with this conversation? Find we’ve kind of left that now. And then we might go and you know, start making dinner or sit and watch a movie or whatever it might be.

Yael Schonbrun  10:26

I’ll share that. So on the on the topic of communication, one really terrific tip that I teach a lot of my couples in the therapy room in that I have a piece coming out in the Washington Post in the next few weeks about this topic, which is something called conversation matching. And it’s this idea that one of the things that comes up for a lot of people in partnerships and friendships, family members, you know, whatever kind of relationship, you’re in work, colleagues, that we kind of come in with different agendas for what we want to get out of communication. 

And this is certainly true when we’re mixing business and personal relationships that, and the two different main types of conversations are problem solving, conversation, and then an understanding conversation. And the reason that it’s important to distinguish between those two is if one person wants to problem solve, because there’s a problem when in the business, but the other person wants to just talk about how frustrating it is that if you’re not on the same page, you’re both going to feel really frustrated. 

And the example that I actually give in the therapy room about this is if I have a tough day at work, and I go home, and I told my husband, “Ugh, I just had a bad day. And I didn’t feel like I connected with my clients. And I just felt incompetent as a therapist.” And he says, “Well, you know, you’ve been saying that a lot, maybe it’s time to get supervision.” But what I was really looking for was sympathy and empathy and compassion, I’m gonna get frustrated with him and say, “Oh, you’re so unsupportive.” And he’s gonna get frustrated in response because he had come in with the best of intentions to be supportive. 

And here I am undermining his efforts. And then now we’re in a conflict, despite the fact that we both started off with the best of intentions. The other thing that often happens, and again, this is true for business and in personal relationships, is that we might think we understand what the other person is going through, what they want, or what their hopes are, what their core needs are, around the conversation, and drop quickly into problem solving. 

But if we don’t sort of spend a little bit of time making sure that we do understand one another, that we’re talking about the same part of the problem that we have similar goals, then even though we’re both on the same page with problem solving, we may feel frustrated, because we’re solving different parts of we’re aiming for different ends in the problem solving conversation. And so one way that I think we can help our relationships, when it whether it’s, you know, between business and personal, is to be clear about what kind of conversation we’re having and make sure that we’re, you know, on the same page in terms of our communication agenda.

Hayley Quinn  12:54

I love that, like, say, because otherwise, you’re kind of coming from different angles, and nobody’s getting their needs met. Gosh, there’s so much we could be teaching in schools isn’t there? Whenever I have conversations with people like this, I’m like, gosh, we missed the mark. There’s so much we could be teaching young people in schools.

Yael Schonbrun  13:14

Yeah, I know. Yeah, I think a lot of the social, emotional stuff that we learn as therapists and psychologists would be so valuable for our kids, my kids always tease me because I’m constantly teaching them this, “You’ll be grateful someday!”

Hayley Quinn  13:31

Just wait till you’re older. So if people are kind of struggling with different aspects of having their business and impacting, what will be some tips that you kind of give people?

Yael Schonbrun  13:48

Well, I mean, just to start with, I think, setting some boundaries. And I think you gave a really nice example of having the physical boundary. But even just clarifying like, Can I make a request? Can I talk about a business frustration with you? Do you have the bandwidth for it? Or do you not? And so maybe even asking permission, but actually, you let me back up, but maybe get clarity from you on? What kinds of like, give me an example of an issue that you’re thinking of when you ask that question. 

Hayley Quinn  14:17

So say somebody is, perhaps they’ve just started a business, let’s go with this. They’ve just started a relatively new business. And as we know, as business owners, that can be a really, really busy time, can be a big learning curve. It’s also exciting. It’s also challenging. And it can take up a lot of your cognitive space. It can be the stuff you want to think about it, you can spend more hours than you might normally do in that space as well. And you might not be spending as much time perhaps with your partner or your children. You might not have enough time or energy to be doing, perhaps some of the household chores that you would have been doing and that landing on your partner? And maybe that’s causing a bit of conflict?

Yael Schonbrun  15:05

 Yeah, well, so one piece of research that I found really interesting. I wrote about it in a recent edition of i have a weekly newsletter where I talk about the science of relationships. And this was a post that I did several weeks ago about a study that found that people often avoid confrontational kinds of conversations, because they worried that they’ll end badly when in fact, they tend to end much better than we anticipate doesn’t mean that they all end well, obviously, but that we tend to sort of have a negative bias and what we predict will happen. So one thing that I would say is, you know, initiate a conversation. Hey, I am I just want to name it. Right, that things I’m really preoccupied right now I can realise, I can see that that’s falling a bit on you more than it has in the past. And I don’t know how you feel about it. So, okay, there’s one tip, approach the conversation. The second tip is catch your assumptions about knowing what your partner or whoever it is, thinks, because we tend to assume too much we’re overconfident in what it is that we think other people are thinking. And were actually very bad at mind reading, even with people that we know well. And you may know them pretty well. 

And you may have a guess. But the problem isn’t that you don’t know the problem is that you’re overconfident and how well you know. And so just check it right rather than assuming and say, you know, I have a guess as to how you might be feeling but I’d love to hear more from you about what that’s like. And then. So now you’re starting an understanding kind of conversation. And then depending how you’re feeling, maybe we can do some problem solving. So then you’re naming the conversation. So the first thing is, approach the conversation. The second is make sure you don’t mind read, instead, ask what it is that they’re thinking and feeling. And the third is, if there are issues can you do problem solving together where you either renegotiate responsibilities, or you make an agreement that there’s some sort of a timeline where your partner is willing, you know, hopefully, generously, to take on a bit more as you get your feet under you to start a business or whatever the thing is that you’re feeling overwhelmed by?

Hayley Quinn  17:12

That’s fantastic. So approach the conversation, don’t assume and I think we, you know, we often will do that won’t we do this thing of like, but I know what they’re going to say it’s like, you don’t, you can’t know what they’re gonna say. You need to actually ask them and find out what it is.  Can I give you another one we’re like playing a game here aren’t we it’s like, think of it think of a scenario and Yale will solve it. No pressure. So another thing and I work with people in my group coaching as well, business owners and the one on one work that I do, because this really does come up for a lot of people, they want to be really immersed in a business, they want their business to be successful, they’re doing something they enjoy, or they’re trying to get through some challenges. 

But they really also want to make sure they’ve got time and space and presence for the people that they love as well, you know, their partners, their children, their friends. And you just have so much knowledge around this relationship stuff that I thought you’d be absolutely perfect to get on for this. So let’s imagine now that there’s somebody who, business owner, and a mum. So small children, perhaps or whatever age, children really. And business is taking up time and energy. They’re perhaps in a season where things are very busy. And they’re really feeling like they’re a bit disconnected from their children, or when they are home. And the children are like “Mum, mum, mum!”, you know, that it feels too much. Yeah, it feels a bit overwhelming. And they’re struggling with that. What would you advise around that sort of stuff?

Yael Schonbrun  19:05

Well, I think you’re kind of naming two issues that are both really important. One is the disconnection with the kids. And one is this feeling of pervasive overwhelm. And I think both are really important. Because, you know, the easy answer is just do more with your kids. But if you’re really overwhelmed, what you really need is a little bit of off time. And I think that is challenging, but doable. I think this is this is something that we don’t talk enough about, which is how do we instead of just doing more, do a little bit last night, have a chapter in Work, Parent, Thrive about this… Those remember to subtract because what the science suggests is that we’re our brains default to adding the more more more Yeah, especially when we’re overwhelmed. There’s this really interesting study that was published in Nature and my one of my colleagues wrote a book. He was one of the authors on this study called Subtract, terrific book, and the study the title of the study is something like people systematically overlook subtraction, even when it’s the better choice, right? 

When we’re faced with a difficult life design choice, we tend to add instead of subtract. And when we’re overwhelmed when our cognitive load is higher, we’re even more likely to neglect subtraction, even though it’s the better choice, right, we have too much going on, we don’t think to take something off of our plate. So I think, number one, figure out what can come off of the plate. And to do that values clarification is really helpful. And the best way that I like to, I shouldn’t say the best way, but my favourite way, I’ll say, that I like to do for myself, and that I teach my patients to do is to think forward 10 years from now. And sort of bring yourself to your 10 years from now, self. Look back on this period. What would you be glad that you stood for? What would you say? 

Oh, I’m glad I didn’t waste my time on that. Oh, I’m really glad that I dedicated you know, what little time I had to this. And the same thing goes, how would I be proud of having stood for self care and downtime? And what would I be proud that I let go up because it wasn’t really filling my cup, and it wasn’t doing anything for the kind of life that I want to live. So this is an Acceptance and Commitment Therapy kind of practice of doing this looking back. And the reason that it’s so helpful is that in the moment, we get so hooked on the emotions and the thoughts of I must do, and I’m so anxious, and I can’t think clearly. 

But when we bring ourselves to the future, it allows us to kind of unhook from those thoughts and those feelings and get a little bit clearer on what we want to stand for. And I do think sometimes in acceptance and commitment that we really think about the things to do. And I think to be very deliberate, knowing the science that we aren’t very good at subtracting, to be very careful to also consider subtraction, it doesn’t mean that you shouldn’t, or you know, that it’s not wise to add, but it’s helpful to do that balance. And especially in parenting, I think we’re so compelled by all the things that other people are doing, like enriching activities that other kids are doing, and all the ways that you know, parents show up for the bake sales and the shows and all those things. 

And it feels like you must do all of those things. But it’s not fundamentally true. Like nobody will be harmed, you know, maybe your kid will be disappointed, but that’s okay. Kids should learn how to be disappointed. Or maybe you’ll be disappointed. And that’s okay, you can tolerate disappointment. But this more zoomed out perspective of what really matters? Like does it really matter that the cake pops are perfectly decorated and cellophane wrapped with a ribbon? Probably not? Probably what matters more is that you have a chance to put your feet up and have a snuggle with your kid at the end of the day. And the same thing goes for work, you know, we often feel like we need to say yes to everything. But actually it can be very helpful to say no, it increases the respect that people have for you. 

And you say, Oh, I have too many things on my plate, I don’t have space in my docket for that. It really shows that you’re in high demand and and those opportunities will come back to pace yourself and recognise what’s important. Using that sort of 10 years, 20 years from now and looking back and clarifying your values and remembering to subtract and create and when you subtract, leave some whitespace and have some quiet space.

Hayley Quinn  23:18

Absolutely, that were in my group. So talk about diary management, and how we need gaps in the diary and allocating time for self care and just kind of nothingness. And also that sort of teaching people how to say no. And it’s not that we don’t know how to say no, we’re just saying it’s the wrong person, right? We’re saying it to ourselves. So every time we say yes to somebody when we don’t really want to, we’re actually saying no to ourselves. But I think this point about subtract. And recently, like I recently sold my house, we packed we moved. I think like four days after moving, we went overseas, we came back. And the other day, I found myself in this kind of real sense of getting overwhelmed, and like had too much to do. And I don’t normally operate like that. Like I’ve worked really hard over the years to come to a pace of working, that really honours myself for my own well being. And this is what I teach people. So I was kind of thinking what’s going on. 

And because I had had this gap, and I’d had to put things on hold. It’s like my mind had this sense of you’ve got to catch up on everything. Start adding more in because you’ve you’ve been you’ve had about six weeks where you’ve not been working at the normal pace. You’ve got to add all this stuff back in. I was like something’s just not right. And it wasn’t until I stopped and realised that what was happening and started actually subtracting this, subtracting that contacting somebody and saying, can we reschedule for a month time? Can we do this on a different time? Actually, I’m going to put that down because it’s not important to me that I could come back to this kind of place of equilibrium again. So I’m really glad you raised that. because that’s what was happening for me, I was adding and adding and adding.

Yael Schonbrun  25:03

Totally! And I just want to say like, what’s amazing about this impulse to add is that it is just so human. So you know, and I know, it’s not wise to always add, it’s very wise to subtract, and yet we still get pulled into it. I think that’s the thing, it needs to be deliberate. And we need to recognise that it’s not going to happen automatically, that we need to make deliberate practices.  I actually a couple weeks ago, I was feeling really overwhelmed. And I was talking to a friend who writes a terrific newsletter, who would just called practically deliberate. And I was telling her and she said, it sounds like you need to subtract. And I was like, Okay, I do, but I’m kind of anxious about it. And I emailed a bunch of people to cancel meetings. And fine, I said to her, the crazy thing is, we stress ourselves out so much, and it’s genuinely not that big of a deal. If you say, I can’t make it to something, you can always reschedule for most things. Or just say no. And let that opportunity pass you by so that you can be more present for the things that really matter. But there’s something in us that makes it hard. We have to be deliberate about it.

Hayley Quinn  26:06

And how often, because I know this has happened to me, or all the other way around, somebody’s asked if they can swap something and somebody says, “Oh, that’s perfect. Actually, I was hoping that I could go do this other thing as well.” So sometimes we’re doing somebody a favour by actually canceling or rescheduling. And again, it’s that assuming, isn’t it, but they will think this or they will be upset? We don’t know. So ask them. Yeah let people know, “I can’t do it.”

Yael Schonbrun  26:37

Yeah, “I’m feeling kind of overwhelmed. Would it be okay, if it’s really important, we can keep it. But if it’s okay, maybe we could reschedule?”

Hayley Quinn  26:44

And I think, you know, I think sometimes people have this sense. And I think in some ways, society has told us, you know, if you say you’re going to do something, you want 100%, and stick to it no matter what, or you’re flaky, you’re unreliable or something. And it’s not. And in my experience, when you are honest with people and transparent, it strengthens the relationships you have with people. They know where they stand with you.

Yael Schonbrun  27:12

I think that’s right. I mean, and I do think that in general, like, if you are somebody who generally shows up, that’s great. The other thing is, if you’re somebody who really has too much on your plate, it is hard to show up for all the things so that is also a cue to subtract. If you really are struggling, it might just be a sign that you are carrying too big of a load. And then, you know, I know that the automatic talk for many people is, “But I can’t take anything off. It’s all really, really important.” And I would just encourage people to question that. I mean, there are things that are absolutely fundamentally important, but there is probably areas of wiggle room. And a really terrific book that I love is called Essentialism by Greg McEwan. And it’s a really nice guide for figuring out what are the essential things? And what are the trivial things in how do you know the difference? And it has a lot to do with values clarification.

Hayley Quinn  28:06

Yeah, I think that that’s a really important piece, isn’t it connecting with your values. I know, for me, I grew up my father was very successful in what he did. And it also meant he was very busy. And it was a while up. And for me, I was a single parent for 13 years. And my first year, on my first semester of doing university studies, when my son was, I think it was three. And I was doing four subjects. And I can remember being really busy and saying to him, you know, just go play, because I had to do something. And as soon as he walked away, I just had this feeling of like, oh, that just that just did not feel good. So I ended up dropping my subjects like to lower subjects, it took me a little bit longer to get my studies finished.  

But it meant that I could be more present. And I used to always ask myself, and I say this to people I work with, when you’re about to embark on something, just ask yourself at what cost? And do you want to pay the price? It could be time that you’re not getting it could be your energy, you know, whatever it is, but at what cost? Because like you say we can feel like I’ve got to do all the things I’ve got to do all the things. Some of that’s our ego as well, right? It’s like, I gotta do that. They asked me like, Well, maybe you don’t?

Yael Schonbrun  29:41

I think that’s, and that’s okay. I mean, I think it’s okay to do things that make you feel good. That’s absolutely right. It’s, I think it’s the balance of things. You want to make sure that you’re sort of feeding lots of different needs, you know, your connections, your ego, your ambitions. And it is it’s hard to say, make the right balance. And I don’t think you’re ever done. It’s sort of like you’re balancing as you go. It’s the process. I know, for me when my kids were really young, it was especially hard. And I think that’s true for a lot of parents. And that’s kind of what you’re describing to it gets easier as they’re older, because they want to be off doing their own things, Mike is now is seven, and he’s incredibly independent. So I’m feeling a little less useful. I still want to hang out with them, I’m thinking that they’re wanting that less. But when they were really young, that was hard. 

But one of the things that I talked about in in Work, Parent, Thrive is that we often think that we should do it alone, the parenting piece, and it’s actually really important for our kids. And for us to involve other caregivers. anthropologists call this alloparenting that humans are wired to rear children in community.  And I think that when you have a lot of pressures, work pressures, or other pressures, it really presses you to engage other caregivers, which is good for your kids, and good for you. But again, it’s the balance because as you’re saying, like it can feel really sad to sort of send your kids away. 

And I think that’s okay, right, it’s okay to feel sad, and then excited to come back together. And you want to have that come back together time and you want that time to be really quality. But to let go of the guilt, as much as you can, the guilt will come up, unhook from it, and say, “This is good for me, for my long term ambitions, it’s good for my child to see his parent or her parent out in the world pursuing things that contribute outside of the home.” And then it’s lovely for us to come back together. And in fact, one piece of science that I think is really terrific is very, very ancient sciences from like the 1800s. Emile Durkheim was this French sociologist who collected data from across Europe, and what he was looking at was risk for suicide. And what he found was that people were at lower risk for suicide when they occupied multiple different roles. 

And that kind of research has been borne out in hundreds of studies since then, which is that, you know, we feel stressed out when we’re pulled in lots of different directions, but actually also feel more fulfilled a greater sense of purpose. So it’s good for us as parents to be pulled away, it’s good for us as workers to be pulled to our family. And it’s hard, both are true. And so just to kind of recognise, you’re not doing it wrong, if you’re struggling, you’re not doing it wrong, if you feel a little sad to say goodbye to your kid. And it’s really just a question of how you navigate that in the way that works best for you in terms of the many things that are important to you, including a quality parent child relationship, and a fulfilling professional life.

Hayley Quinn  32:30

Yeah, absolutely. Absolutely. So we’ve kind of talked about the sort of things people can do. But what do you think are some of the barriers that people need to just kind of tune into that might be getting in the way of them perhaps having those conversations or saying no to the things or making some changes in how they’re doing business life and home life perhaps?

Yael Schonbrun  32:57

Well, I’m sure that there’s, you know, for everybody has different contextual factors that are, you know, impinging on what they’re capable of doing like, you know, supportive colleagues or bosses or, you know, infrastructure that you need to get a business off the ground that can be limiting. But as a psychologist, the thing I’m most interested in is like, you know, the internal stuff, what gets in the way internally. So when I say this, I’m not suggesting that there aren’t also external things that are, there are, but I think one of the things that people really get caught up in is like the identity piece of like, who am I and if I can’t be this kind of a person, then forget it. And we get very rigid in that, as opposed to having like a more adventurous spirit about it. I think, if you’re in business and trying to navigate, you know, relationship life, you need a lot of flexibility. And so it isn’t going to go perfect. 

And to just trust that you probably will have lots of oopss along the way, and that those will help you to learn and grow.  So, you know, move from a fixed mindset to a growth mindset. This is a concept that many people know about from academic research that, you know, people can either have a fixed mindset or a growth mindset around their capabilities in math, but actually, the same kind of conceptual framework applies to our roles in life, we can think, 

Okay, I’m going to be a great, you know, therapist or professor, or I’m going to be a terrible one. And in fact, what would be more useful is to say, I’m going to learn how to do better and better and whatever the endeavour is that I’m interested in doing parenting or work or anything else.  And so not to get too rigid about how you define yourself your self identity or your success. And I do think like the Shoulds, right, which is like it should be this way before I start, or I should have this kind of training, or it should feel like less of an imposter. You know, when you’re starting out anything you’ll feel like an impostor. I think that, you know, just expect that kind of language, because we all have it. 

I mean, I am decades into my career. And I still sometimes feel like an imposter. But what Acceptance and Commitment Therapy allows me to do is to say it’s okay, like you have that thought, you know, what do you want to do? What’s important to you, and you show up, even with that thought, sort of, you know, in the midst of whatever it is that you’re doing, can you kind of pay attention to whatever’s more important than that thought? Which is generally, you know, showing up for the things that you value.

Hayley Quinn  35:22

Yeah, so holding lightly some of those labels. So, you know, I am my business or you’re not you have a business, whatever that business might be, and that there’s no one right way to do all this as that. It’s really about knowing yourself and tuning in and understanding what fits for you and your family, your relationships, the context, like you say that you are living in and under. And yeah, that we all have times where we struggle with this. We all have the the I should this I should that, but perhaps not believing everything that our mind might tell us? Yeah. Cause they’re tricky minds? Right?

Yael Schonbrun  36:04

So tricky. Yeah, interesting to you take the two of us, because we’ve had pretty unconventional career paths, you’ve started a couple of businesses and gone to university as a single mother. And I started out as a full time academic, and then moved into popular writing and very, now peripheral and academic, but still there. And I think, exactly as you’re saying, like we get into this idea of identity of like, This is who I am, like I am an academic, I am an entrepreneur, that can you sort of more flexibly relate to that identity and see if there’s possibilities to engineer whatever the roles are, that really matter to you in ways that work for your life. Sometimes there’s not an actually that can be beneficial, because it creates like, you don’t have to recreate the wheel like I, and you probably had to create this path for ourselves, which is a heavy lift. 

And sometimes when there’s not that flexibility, the benefit is that you just kind of step into the role as opposed to having to create it. But it does mean less flexibility, which is a drawback. And I suppose the point of what I’m trying to make is that I think most paths have advantages and disadvantages, and to figure out the advantages that really matter to you and the disadvantages that you can tolerate. 

Hayley Quinn  37:19

Yeah, yeah. I love that. Oh, I love chatting with you, Yael. I could talk to you all day, I really could. One of the things that I’ve actually…

Yael Schonbrun  37:29

If only we are on the same side of the globe, Hayley, We should go out for coffee one day when we’re on the same side of the globe. 

Hayley Quinn  37:36

Absolutely. That is a date. Absolutely. Now, this is a question I ask all my guests I have asked you before, I’m going to remind you of what you said, as well. So the question is, if you were to meet your 80 year old self, what do you think she would say to you today?

Yael Schonbrun  37:56

Yeah, I think I do remember what I said. I think I said slow down, right?

Hayley Quinn  38:01

Yes. You said, “Take Haley’s advice and slow down.” And you said you’ve got lots of things that you love, that you think you’d enjoy it more and do a better job and feel better about what you’re doing if you slow down? So have you managed to do that?

Yael Schonbrun  38:22

Um, yes, and no, I think it’d be interesting to ask my husband. Yes and no. So interestingly, so the last time you and I met, I was a co host on a podcast Psychologists Off the Clock, which is a terrific podcast. And I can say that now even more strenuously, because I’m no longer co hosts. So it doesn’t sound self serving. But I subtracted co hosting a podcast, which was a huge dedication of time, and I loved it.  But I had decided that I really wanted to enjoy my writing time and dedicate myself more deeply to thinking deeply in writing. And so that has been something that’s opened up a bit more time and helped me to slow down in interest. So I took off a big role. But now I write more. So on the one hand, I slowed down a little bit professionally, on the other hand, now I’m doing a lot of writing. But for me, writing feels more calming, I think, because it’s just me and my computer.  And so there’s something that, in a sense, feels slower, even though there are some deadline pressures on it. 

The other thing I’ll just mention is that my kids are actually on break this coming week. We have spring break here in Boston. And we thought about doing something and I said, You know what I think I’m going to take because I was feeling pretty burned out from work. And in the many areas that I do work, I am planning to take a few days off and just hang with them and we’re going to try not to do screens and go out for ice cream and go for a run and just have like a lot of you know, hanging out at a park and I’m really excited about that. So I think that My life is often chaotic during pockets. But I do make it a deliberate practice to have time where we are very quiet. And as a more regular thing, we try hard on Saturdays to not have screens and to not have plans. I mean, my kids do some activities on Saturdays, 

I will fully admit that. But I say no to a lot of birthday parties, and we try to have Saturdays be more family time as much as possible despite the soccer practices. So I do think my life is still full in the many ways that I really love because as you mentioned that I really love my work. I love being a psychologist, I love being a writer, I do some supervision at Brown University, I really enjoy that. I get interviewed on podcasts like yours, which is so fun. And I am a parent of three boys who are high energy. So it feels chaotic. But I do think that the thinking about subtracting and the priority that I have on on having moments of calm through in a given week in a given day or two has really become a practice of mine. So it feels balanced more of the time than it used to be.

Hayley Quinn  41:18

Before we get back to what your eighty year old self would say now, I just think you’ve raised some really lovely points. And one of them is sometimes when we are creating the life that we want to be living that feels fulfilling for us, we sometimes have to give away things that we really enjoy, like for you with the podcast, I stepped away from a lot of my clinical work. You know, sometimes we have to make decisions to set aside things that we may be really do love in service of something else that we really want to pursue. And also that, Yes, life can be very busy. And at times it’s going to be particularly if you’ve got children, particularly if you’ve got three high energy boys. And that’s okay, but let’s or and let’s make that busyness full of things we actually want to be doing, not just busy for busy sake, or busy because somebody else wants you doing those things, I think really kind of tailoring it to is my life full of the things that are meaningful and values aligned. 

And if not, what can I say? Subtract. And at times, what can I subtract anyway, like I’ve just done recently, they’re things I want to be doing, but they don’t need to be done right now. I need to honour my own well being right now. Or, you know, I or I risk, you know, heading back towards burnout, which I’m not willing to do. So thanks for sharing those, because I think that really does highlight the different ways life can be that how we can make choices to make it more aligned for what we want.

Yael Schonbrun  43:01

Yeah, and I just want to double down on it. I had a lot of grief leaving the podcast, I really, really loved it. It was such a terrific part of my life. And I loved working with my podcast co hosts and I loved interviewing people, it was so fulfilling. But it is sort of you have to say no to some something so that you can say a more wholehearted yes to others. Yes. Yeah. I think that is just a fact of life. 

And we want to say yes to everything. But then we’re kind of saying no to everything, because we’re just stretched too many directions. And so figuring out what you can say no to so that you can really be present for the things that really deeply matter to you. And I mean, I actually did do the eulogy exercise, which is a very classic Acceptance and Commitment Therapy, exercise. And I thought, you know, do I want to say podcaster on my tombstone or writer and I was like, No, I think I wanted to say writer that for me is so, so fundamental to what I want to stand for. And it’s going to be different for everybody. But it was a clear choice, but it was a very hard choice.

Hayley Quinn  44:04

Yeah, absolutely. And takes courage, right? Because you were stepping from something you knew into something you didn’t know. So good on you. Are you speaking my language Yael? speaking my language. Love it. So let’s get back to if you were to meet your 80 year old self today, what would she say to you now?

Yael Schonbrun  44:25

I think she would say I’m glad you’re having so much fun. I really enjoy my life. What’s so my mother is she’s 76 and I recently was talking to her and she led a really different life than I lead she was a stay at home parent and an immigrant and you know felt like a lot of the opportunities that I have were just not available to her and yeah, I don’t know if it’s me so much but she’s she made this comment. She’s so that it’s it’s not exactly my eight year old self but it’s my mother who’s close to me and she’s your life is just so interesting. I love having an interesting life. And to me that’s, that’s really fun. Like I’m tired at the end of the day, but I’m, I think my eight year old self will be glad that I was doing such interesting fun things. 

Hayley Quinn  45:14

Good on you for creating that for yourself.

Yael Schonbrun  45:18

We’ll see how it goes. I’m still I am like still uncertain how this whole writing thing is gonna unfold. But I’m, but I’m giving it a go.

Hayley Quinn  45:26

Fantastic. So if people want to find out more about you, and I will put links in the show notes, where would be the best place for them to come and seek you out.

Yael Schonbrun  45:44

So I have a website,  yaelschonbrunn.com yelschonbrun.com. And through there you can see links to a bunch of my popular press, writing links to my newsletter, which is a free weekly newsletter called Relational Risks that’s hosted on substack and other information like about my private practice. So you can go find me there. I’m a little bit on social media, but not very much.

Hayley Quinn  46:06

Oh, yeah. Well, it’s been such a pleasure. And I’m sure there’s some absolute nuggets of gold that people will be able to take away from this. Thank you so much again for coming back and for being my first return guest.

Yael Schonbrun  46:18

Oh, thank you so much for having me. Haley. I love speaking with you. I really do wish we lived closer together. We’d want to take you out for coffee once a week. Get all that Hayley wisdom.

Hayley Quinn  46:30

Oh, that’s so lovely. So lovely. You take care. We’ll speak again soon.

Yael Schonbrun  46:34

I hope so. Thank you so much for having me.

Thank you for sharing this time with me today. I hope our time together has been helpful and supportive. If there has been something in this episode that you have found helpful, I invite you to share it with another person who you think might benefit. If you’ve benefited in any way from the podcast, please do me a favor and show my pod some love by giving it a five star rating and review. Ratings reviews and shares really helped to increase awareness and reach of the podcast, allowing this helpful information to be spread more widely. 

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I wish you all well and your relationship with yourself and your business may go well and go gently. 

And remember, if you thrive, your business will too.