Episode #10 Talking Self-Care with Dr. Mary Welford
Hi, this is Welcome to Self ™ Caring for the Human in the Therapist Chair, and I’m your host, Dr. Hayley D Quinn, fellow human, clinical psychologist, supervisor and trainer. Welcome to Self ™ is a place where you can come and learn ways to elevate your own care and compassion. A place to rest, be soothed, and at times maybe gently challenged to think about yourself and your practice. A place to remember that you are human first, choose the helping profession is just one of the roles in your life. My aim is that this is a place of soothing, comfort, nourishment, growth and nurture. A place where you can also welcome your self.
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I’m thrilled to announce my next guest, Dr. Mary Wellford. Mary is a consultant clinical psychologist who has held senior positions for the BA BCP and Compassionate Mind Foundation. She currently works with a range of UK based schools and heads up care to achieve promoting the aims of educational settings by improvements to staff, student and parental wellbeing. Mary authored the Kindness Workbook in 2020, Compassion Focus Therapy for Dummies in 2016 and the Compassionate Mind Approach to Building Your Self Confidence in 2012. It is my great pleasure to welcome Mary to the podcast.
Hayley:: Hi, Mary, thank you so much for joining me, this is fantastic. Could you start with telling us a little bit about yourself? And what it was that drew you to becoming a helping professional?
Mary: So, I grew up in Yorkshire, north of England and early memories. Yeah, you know, it’s difficult to know how different you are to other people, isn’t it? Or you know how similar you are to other people. I always remember being kind of tuned into what was going on for other people and interested and wanting to help, but I do think that that is quite a human trait. But my parents were, I suppose worked with people, so my Dad was a policeman and my Mum was a nursery nurse. And so, there was a lot about others and people and then I was doing biology and a teacher had said to me, what about psychology? And I thought, oh, yeah, that sounds interesting. Not least because I didn’t think I well I didn’t get the grades to do genetics, which was my kind of like thing that I’d set my heart on. And so, I went to kind of like, I went to do psychology, and then it was more of a sense of I followed what I liked. So, I became a support worker, and I liked that. And whilst being a support worker, there was psychologists that used to come in, and kind of design things, interventions, and all sorts of things. And I became really interested in that. So, it was more something that unfolded and evolved rather than a strategic, this is what I want to do, I just followed what I liked.
Hayley: Yeah. Nice. And then what sort of led you down the path because you work a lot with young people, don’t you?
Mary So I suppose that the path of, you don’t have to be an adult psychologist for long or working within emotional and mental health psychological wellbeing to have that thought I wish I’d have got in earlier, I wish I’d have seen this person earlier. It doesn’t take long for you to kind of like oh, if only, I wish. So that led me to be interested in working with younger and younger adults. And then actually those who are in transition from child services to adult services. And then I got an opportunity to start working into a school. Which I kind of like did, and yeah, it’s an opportunity to kind of like work early and earlier, but I’m laughing because, you know, you do get to a certain point whereby, you know, you get to see young kids, and then you think I need to see the parents. So, you kind of like you come full circle. And it has led me to just think, actually, the point of, you know, working with somebody is now you know, that the most the best time is now. You know, whether you’re an 8-year-old, 40-year-old, 18-year-old, you know, kind of So, so yeah, so that’s what led me trying to chase this perfect time to prevent and to intervene. And so yeah, working my way down the age group really.
Hayley:: Lovely, yeah, I’d like to say I think that’s the thing, many of us that work with adults have had that experience of, oh, no, I hear myself a lot saying, why is this stuff not taught in schools, this stuff needs to get to people earlier?
Mary Absolutely the other the parallel is, you know, kind of like so. So that’s our, you know, client focused work, but then it’s in ourselves as well, isn’t that? Why wasn’t I taught this in school. Why? Why have I got to the edge that I am, and I’m still having good like points at which I just have a penny drop moment for myself, or, you know, I think, gosh, how have we got to the age that I’m at, and not actually realised X, Y, and Z or not done the work on X, Y, and Z? So, I think it’s as much as you know, the clinical work that I was doing. But also, that sense of, you know, yeah, I wish I’d known it. I wish I’d been taught this, and therefore, that motivating me.
Hayley:: Yeah, gosh, absolutely. I can relate to that. Why didn’t I know there’s many, many, many years ago. Things could’ve been quite different.
Mary I kind of think that’s the, you know, when we started workshops around, you know, compassion focus therapy, and of course, it was the strap line, you know, was working with, you know, higher levels of shame, higher levels of self-criticism, or, you know, kind of like, there was this emphasis on people who are really shame lead and who were really critical of themselves, and the other therapies weren’t necessarily touching the sides or, you know, kind of like all, or benefited from additional stuff, etc. And what we actually found was that, whilst we were training others, people were just saying, oh, my God, this applies to me. Yeah. And you just hear that so many times people saying, you know, in the early days, I feel changed by it. Yeah. You know, it was when I did the exercise that I realised this, it was when you were talking about this, it was when I was in a room with a load of other people. And there was a common experience of Paul talking about something or some materials in that, that actually changed things for me. And, you know, again, that’s what I like about the, you know, the approach by virtue, you know, that it is this common humanity, it’s all of us, and we learn it best from the inside out.
Hayley:: Yeah, absolutely. I’d certainly agree with that. So, you’ve been learning, teaching and writing about compassion focus therapy for a long time. What have you found most personally helpful about?
Mary I think that this is a, it’s something to do with CFT. But it’s a bit of a kind of a digression from it as well. I think that personally the most helpful thing is being with other people who are not judging. You know, it’s about, it’s about community, in actual fact, which is a little bit of a kind of, you know, part of me wants to say, it’s this practice, you know, kind of like, or it’s this kind of bit of information, or it’s the fact that you know, I have got my personal practice and on the morning I do this and on an evening I do this, but it’s not in actual fact. It’s about, there’s something about being with other human beings and finding a vehicle that allows me to be with other human beings in a truly authentic way. And not to be judged by it, you know, kind of, by myself. So, it’s about being around other human beings that say things like, that makes sense.
Hayley:: Yeah, absolutely. Absolutely. I think there’s lots of people actually, that, who I know that are involved in the kind of CFT community that would absolutely agree with you on that. There is something isn’t there about that connection, where we can show up in an authentic way. And know that we’re not going to be judged. I’ve spoken about this before, in terms of the benefit of the training I had in CFT. Was it created this space where I could actually do deeper work with myself? Because there was a sense of safeness about that? Yeah. And I think one of the big things certainly I know for maybe I’m just talking for myself, but I don’t think I am. I think one of the hardest things in terms of the community at the moment is with COVID Is this inability to travel and see each other. Because coming together, is always so it’s like I call it my CFT family. It’s like this really beautiful connection. And I agree with you on that. I think it’s a really lovely thing.
Mary I think it’s, I suppose that with what’s been going on in the world, I think, like everything, there are benefits and drawbacks. I mean, like this huge, kind of like drawbacks and the suffering loss, all sorts of things. You know, there is that, that sense that, you know, we can’t come together and physically be in a room for a conference and things. So, there’s all of that. But I honestly do think that had it not been for, you know, what’s been going on recently, maybe we wouldn’t have connected. You know, maybe we wouldn’t be sat here having this conversation so comfortable with using, you know, kind of like technology. The fact that I, you know, can connect with people in a really, actually familiar, and comfortable way, with people wherever they are, is, it’s an I interesting one, isn’t it? Because, you know, 100%, you know, the amount of times that I finish off to people and saying, oh, wouldn’t it be great, if we’re all at conference this year? Wouldn’t it be great to see you? You know, of course, there is that. But then at the same time, you know, actually, the world’s opened up a bit, you know, some, you know, kind of like, as well, I’m connecting differently. I’m connecting, you know, during training and things like that, one of my things, is how do we make it as much like, we’re in a room together? You know, how do we, you know, actually create a meeting, create a training workshop, whatever it is that actually we can feel like we’re in the same, you know, room and, you know, I know that there’s stuff for therapists that you put on, you know, kind of like, in actual fact, because we’re more familiar with things, I think it’s most likely increased other people’s access to each other.
Hayley:: Yeah. Good and not so good in all of it. Hey.
Mary Yeah. And that’s life, isn’t it?
Hayley:: Absolutely. Absolutely. With everything and, but I think it’s a really interesting point and I haven’t thought so much about it like that, because I guess I, you know, I have family overseas, and I have a lot of friends over there. So, I have been a little bit focused on but I want to get on a plane and fly to the UK, so I can see people rather than, I guess, embracing some of this more, which I could be doing. So, thank you for bringing that to my attention.
Mary Because it’s both isn’t it? You know, it’s all very well, me sat here saying, you know, because I can, you know, it’s a six hour trek, but I can go and see my mum, you know, I can go and see people, you know, I don’t have people who I can’t see, you know, kind of that type and there’s lots of people in the world who, who can’t see, you know, family, partners, children, you know, it’s so it’s both. Yeah. It is a CFT kind of thing. around, or certainly, it became clearer and clearer to me as I was working in CFT. So, I learned it through CFT. But other people will learn it through other routes. Is that thing that things can be both? Yeah. So we can be excited about something as well as terrified.
Hayley: Okay, absolutely.
Mary: You know, we can be really pleased for somebody else about something, whilst also feeling some degree of jealousy, you know. So, there is something about embracing what this has given us, but also being gentle with the fact of this, there’s huge losses, this huge impact.
Hayley: Absolutely, feelings aren’t mutually exclusive, hey. We can have a range of them at the same time. I guess it’s that looking different perspectives of things, isn’t it? Taking a situation but actually looking at it from different perspectives? Yeah, yeah. So just revisiting back to the sort of work you do with young people. I’m curious, because I, as I have got older. I love listening to younger people talk about stuff, I think it’s great. I’m just curious, what’s been your biggest learning in your work with young people?
Mary: I think there’s the biggest bit is most likely, the need to make things relevant. Yeah. I think what happens with when we’re adult we go along, and, you know, we might go for therapy ourselves, we might kind of like, see people for therapy, there’s often a consistency between appointments, you know, kind of like, and, you know, people have come along, they’ve often thought about, they’ve gone through a process of to be seen etc., and they’ve got a focus. With young people, the thing is, is that, you know, who shows up one week might be different, you know, kind of same person, but kind of like different headspace. Yeah, you know, that they’re in. So, there is something about needing to be adaptive, and flexible, and what might have been relevant to one person isn’t relevant to another person. What might have been relevant the week before, isn’t relevant the following week. And so, it’s working through what’s important, you know, for them. So, you know, I might do quite a lot of work through sports, or through drama, you kind of like, within schools, or through, you know, through all sorts of different approaches. And, you know, a common theme about that is how one is talking to oneself. You know, it’s not done in the same way as I might do with an adult. It can be, but it’s, it’s more of a kind of like a coaching style. So, there’s a big thing about making things relevant to young people, then them engaging with the material, of course, it’s engaging with me, but you know, that people seeing a point to what we’re talking about.
Hayley: Yeah, sounds like that, and as much as we need to be present with all our clients, it sounds like there’s this real need to be very present. And perhaps slightly more flexible with younger people because I guess they’re in such a, you know, developmental phase as well, aren’t they? And there’s a lot of change that happens in those younger years. So, kind of being more on the ball, so to speak with that.
Mary: Yeah. And, you know, so the whole thing, but, you know, this isn’t specific to CFT it’s kind of like, it’s very, you know, it’s being a parent, it’s been an aunt or an uncle, it’s being you know, come like, is active. From a therapist point of view, you can prayer, you know, kind of like, which is what, but then, you know, actually my preparation may be totally irrelevant. Yeah, you know, like, the follow up, you know, for that session. So, and it will be inappropriate for me to be saying, oh, no, but we can like I plan to do this. So, we said last week, we’re gonna focus on this.
Hayley: This is my agenda. Could you please stick to it like, no think on your feet. You couldn’t think on your feet and I’m gonna dodge and weave and change what you’re doing.
Mary: So, so I think that there is no there’s definitely, there’s definitely that. But, you know, hopefully we’re just doing that anyway. Yeah, you know, kind of like with, you know, whomever we’re seeing, yeah. I know, for myself, you know, I can, that can be a different version of me, you know, on a week-by-week version, and it comes back to that whole thing about, you know, showing up all of yourself, you know, different angles different, you know, versions. So maybe with, I don’t know, my hunches, that, when I’m working with younger people, I have to probe less for the different versions, it’s just kind of like, you know. Whereas with adults, you know, we can get into a set pattern can’t we, and sometimes a good question is, you know, if I’d have spoken to a different point in the week, you know, kind of like, if I had, you know, or, you know, are there things that we’re not talking about? Are there versions of you? You know, on a bad day, tell me about, you know, kind of like a difficult thing. That’s what we’re doing, isn’t it? It’s kind of, but there’s more probing, maybe.
Hayley: And I wonder, because I guess, you know, the longer we live, if we get into that sort of thing of mask wearing, yeah, we learn to put on a mask, don’t we and behave a particular way. And I suppose the more years you have practicing doing that, the more skilled you are at that. And then perhaps as a therapist, we have to probe a little bit more to kind of see if we can get people to lower that mask and feel that sense of safeness in therapy, so they can do that as well.
Mary: Huge. Yeah, absolutely. Absolutely. You say it so much more eloquently than me Hayley.
Hayley: As well, if it’s about us learning, you know, that we can lower our mask as well. Because I think there’s quite a narrative about what we should be as therapists, which I don’t think is always that helpful. I think if we can be our authentic self, and not feel that we’ve got to put such a mask on that can be, that can be helpful, too.
Mary: I think that’s, you know, that is a huge thing, isn’t it? And it’s worth thinking where that comes from sometimes. Kind of, I think, unfortunately, there is sometimes all we can cultivate with ourselves and emphasis on, you know, getting it right, asking the right question being, you know, kind of like, well, you know, such and such they seem to have it all sorted that therapist or? And, you know, yeah, it’s kind of sometimes how things are taught to us, you know, that there’s a right and a wrong, that there is this way, you know, and we have got to stick to this, and I think that can put an inordinate amount of pressure. And, you know, do I believe it’s helpful to know protocols? Yes. Do I think it’s helpful for us to learn from people who do have that expert you know, kind of like overview, it seems? Absolutely, but not to then beat ourselves up about the fact that, you know, kind of like, we’re work in progress because you know, what, they’ll be working progress as well.
Hayley: Absolutely, absolutely. What do you think, would have been helpful for you when you were a new practitioner starting out? What do you think it will be helpful to, to have heard?
Mary: It’s a good question, I think I would have benefited from people, you know, kind of like saying that, as I said, there are all of these different ways of working, you know kind of like, there’s all of these different and it’s about you developing, aware of working that you bring yourself to the, rather than me trying to be somebody that I wasn’t. I think that might have benefited me, you know, kind of like so, it’s almost like a don’t know, I think in pictures, but trees are natural things, you know, and we can prune them, and we can cultivate, you know, and look after them and things like that, but, you know, no two trees are the same. Yeah.
Hayley: And nor do we expect them to be.
Mary: You know, like, it’s that and you know, that we’re not robots, you’re not working on an algorithm are we. So, the thing is, is that it’s respecting each tree and their journey. And then kind of like it’s, it’s for all therapists to cultivate it, you know, but we need others around us as well. So there is something about actually finding those people around us who can be on, you know, kind of like can support us in it. You know, so the thing is, I don’t know, I’m kind of like going off on a bit of a digression tangents, you know, a bit discombobulated maybe, but, you know, it’s, like, with our client work, you know, we don’t expect them to transform into, you know, kind of like a different person, you know, we hope that in our work, that they find strength in, you know, themselves and that they, you know, people talk about the best version and all of these different things, but you know kind of like actually can be authentic. See, the strengths be caring of themselves, look after them, you know. But as therapists we sometimes expect of ourselves to kind of like to end up kind of, I don’t know, aspiring to be somebody else inhabiting this expert, I think. So, I don’t know. It’s a roundabout, kind of like wear of musing. That’s what I would have liked, most likely an environment, not somebody necessarily saying it to me, but an environment where you have people around you who do kind of like that has that emphasis?
Hayley: Yeah. Reminds me of what you’re talking about before with community and it’s almost like having this community around you that models being authentic. Yeah, we all bring something very personal to being therapists, don’t we? Yeah. And I always hold in mind, you know, we need to be professional and ethical, and then bring our authentic self and what we bring to the table in terms of being a therapist. It’s okay to do that. Because I can’t be Mary Wellford and Mary Wellford can’t be Hayley Quinn. Yeah. And that’s really okay.
Mary: Yeah, yeah. Yeah. So, I would have liked. Yeah, I would have liked more of a you know, can I and, if it was somebody saying, something to me would be, you don’t need to do this all yourself. Because I definitely felt as if I had amazing people around me, but there was still this kind of, but I’ve got to, you know, I’ve got to push and I’ve got to, you know, an emphasis less on togetherness. And, you know, there was more of an emphasis on me proving myself, you know, me during supervision, and all sorts of things, it’s, it was about proving that I was good enough.
Hayley: It can be really tricky, can’t it?
Mary: Hugely. You know, kind of like, it’s, it’s a very vulnerable, you know, tricky position to be in, you know, the pressure that we put ourselves under, especially. And then when we first buy the huge kind of, we want to, you know, we’re not, I have packed dog biscuits, that has been my job. So, I’m not dissing the fact of packing up dog biscuits, but when I was packing dog biscuits, the stakes weren’t high. You know, so there’s this kind of like, we work with people where the stakes are pretty high. There’s a spectrum with that.
Hayley: Yeah. So, given that, what do you find the biggest challenges that you face in terms of taking care of yourself as a practitioner? Because I think a lot of people struggle with this.
Mary: Yeah, I kind of think that I know, for myself that you know, there’s a theme that’s coming through I think as I’m talking. If I don’t have the right not the right, that’s the wrong word, but if I don’t have people around me I know that I can kind of like, go off-pist, as it were and off-pist is fine sometimes but you know, therapeutically or personally you know, in my work life, that’s not so great. So, I need you know, you can find because life gets in the way doesn’t it that it can be quite an isolating job, which is an odd one, isn’t it because we work with humans all the time. But it can be a professionally isolating thing. So sometimes that is a challenge, because you’ve got all sorts of other things that’s going on. So, I need therapeutic community around me. And I think that the other thing is recognition that self-care isn’t all about doing the, you know, I’ll go for a walk, I’ll practice a bit of mindfulness. I will, self-care is actually tuning in to oneself noticing, and then thinking what do I need? Absolutely. And sometimes, you know, kind of like, I find the, I find the mindfulness and the practices and the, I find that so much easier than when I tune into myself and think I need to have that conversation, you know, or I need to say no to that, or I, you know, need to rein in this, or I need to push myself more. Yeah. You know, or I need to tidy the house. You don’t get to just like, oh I need, I need to cook yourself some food that is in the freezer? So, I’m not constantly going what on earth do I, you know actually, that’s all, that’s all self-care?
Hayley: Absolutely. It’s like, I could do the bubble bath thing, but you know what, I actually really need to go and do something I don’t want to do. I want to go into the bubble bath thing that sounds so much nicer. But if I don’t go and do that thing, or have that difficult conversation, things are gonna be so much more difficult. Or if we lose touch with ourselves. Yeah, I think that regular checking in is so important. So, we don’t lose touch with ourselves.
Mary: Yeah, because, you know, I sit, you know, I have the benefit of in my work, I mean, you know, there’s various different kind of, you know, referral sources or people who get in contact, and, you know, whether it be through the training, through the retreats through kind of like person, you know, kind of one to one therapy, I do see quite a number of, you know, kind of like therapists. And, you know, people who will make self-care, you know, we’ll be doing all of the things, you know, kind of, like, as I said, have a mindfulness practice, you know, engage in kind of, like imagery, doing all of these, you know, difficult things. But it’s almost become a, it’s another stick to beat themselves with. Yeah. You know, another thing on the to do list. So, I’m not saying that that isn’t important. It’s hugely important, but it’s about balance.
Hayley: Yeah. You can’t be all that there is can it. I often think about it, we need what I like to think of as a deep and courageous level of self-care. It can’t be just on the surface, we have to go within, and it does take courage. Yeah. You know, facing up to things that perhaps we’re doing that are harmful to ourselves, or, you know, at best unhelpful. And thinking about how we’re going to change those things takes courage. The sort of stuff we might work with clients around that we perhaps need to do for ourselves. Yeah, I think social media has kind of made it all a bit bubble baths and massages, hasn’t it? Which again, are lovely, I love those. But yeah, they’re not quite enough are they?
Mary: No, they’re not. And I can’t, you know, it is, it’s that creating the balance, it’s often doing a like, you know, kind of like you saying about being courageous, it’s having, it’s having the courage. You know, to turn towards those sorts of things. But it’s also about not doing it on your own.
Hayley: Yeah, yeah. So, can you tell us a bit about the retreats that you’re on with Dr. Deborah Lee? I am going to make it over there one year and come along. Why do you believe therapists self-care is so important because obviously you run these retreats for therapists and helping professionals.
Mary: Yeah, so um, so number one. I love where I live. You know, it is absolutely you know, we’re on the coast. It’s beautiful. I feel really grounded, kind of like here, and there’s something about wanting to share that or have a kind of like, welcoming people. So that was part of that. There’s a huge part of me and Deborah wanting a reason to regularly get together. Yeah, it’s just got like, what can we do that would be lovely, that kind of, you know, and we put you know, time into thinking about you know, each time so that means that we connect, and we go through kind of like slides, and we talk about practices and all sorts of different things. So, there’s partly, you know, it is a vehicle for, but you know, the big thing is, it’s about, wanting to connect with other therapists, share some ideas, and engage with the materials. And we call it a real treat for therapists. But we have a bit of a disclaimer on it, which is, you know, just exactly as we’ve just been talking about there, is, you know, we could make it really nice, we do yoga on the beach, we go on a geology walk, we have walks, we kind of like sit around a campfire on the beach. We could fill it with all of those types of things and people will go away, feeling refreshed, but maybe not as changed. Yeah. So, kind of like as we do some hard work. Yeah. So, we really think about, you know, where we’re at. And, you know, how we’re talking to ourselves and how as therapists you know, as human beings, we can feel shame about certain things. And, you know, we talk about our, you know, how we got to the point of which we’re at, and it’s quite an emotional experience. But hopefully supported by amazing people, because everyone who’s come along, you know, you’ve only got spend a shorter amount of time with, you know, kind of, like with other human beings and hear a bit about their story. And yeah, everyone’s amazing, it’s a supportive, safe environment. The landscape, I think, supports that work, because you can decompress, you can, you can do kind of, like, we can have an hour and a half of quite intense, you know, kind of like work, don’t scare people off but emotional connecting, you know, kind of like work, but then you can walk straight out the building, and you can, you know, stand in front of the ocean, you know, and walk about on the beach and put your feet into the water and feel the sand and feel that, kind of like the water or plunge into the you know, kind of like the sea pool or whatever it is. So, yeah, so it’s kind of like it’s, I think it’s a way that people can have space for themselves to do this work, but also to learn a bit about the model as well. And kind of like how, how to use it. So, it is CPD it is personal practice. Hopefully, it’s a treat.
Hayley: Yeah, that’s fantastic. And I think when you were saying it was, well, it really you and Deborah just wanted to have a good excuse to hang out. You know, on a more serious note with that, I think when we can think about things in our work, that if we can do things like that, where you’re perhaps connecting with somebody you really cherish, and you can do work alongside with them as a project or one off or an ongoing thing. These are the sorts of things that if we can add them into our work, yeah, isn’t that part of self-care, too? I mean, we spend a lot of our life working. I think find projects and things that actually, you know, are light, and, you know, perhaps you with people you really care about, or it’s something that you can have a laugh with, or, I’m all for that.
Mary: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. 100%.
Hayley: And I’ll definitely be there as soon as I can get on a plane, and you are having a retreat, I will be coming because it sounds amazing.
Mary: Just a shout out to everybody who’s been on it, you know, I have developed, you know, personally and professionally from people coming along, showing up, sharing, you know, I, you know, I’m still in contact with the majority, you know, we’ve set up WhatsApp groups and things like that. And, you know, even though those aren’t that, you know, sometimes they go quiet and then there’s a flurry of activity around something. It’s, you know, these things are great vehicles to connect. Absolutely.
Hayley: Again, it comes back doesn’t it, connection and community and we are social beings, this stuff is so important for us. And somewhat tricky at the moment in various places in the world, and certainly here in Australia. In the southern states, people being isolated, and you know, finding ways of staying connected is so important, isn’t it? Yeah, yeah. So, I ask this question of everybody. If you could meet yourself 20 years from now. What do you think your future self would say to you?
Mary: I think there would be something about just do it. You know, this, again, what CFT taught me and I, you know, I keep referring to CFT because that’s my journey, my personal journey. But you know, it could be good, like other people can get to this point. You know, kind of like through other routes, but what CFT taught me is, it’s all about the blocks. It’s all about the barriers, you know, so people will often think oh well, it’s about the, you know, like it’s about the compassionate mind training, it’s about doing this, it’s about the breathing, as well as the sorts of things. No, it’s about the blocks it’s about what boxes. And the thing is, is that, you know, we can find ourselves on the hamster wheel, and we will come up for air and we think, or, you know, I need to do this, or I’d like to do that, or wouldn’t it be amazing if we could do this, but then we kind of, don’t? Exactly, we’re kind of like, making this gesture, which is good, like, pushing it away, you know, save it for another day, I’ll come to that, you know, and, you know, we can just spend our life putting things off that we know, would be helpful to us. It would be something around yeah, be brave, go for it. You know, what, you know, kind of like, what would be helpful, you know, the life that would be, you know, that you want to live? You know, go for it. And there is, you know, of course, as I’m saying that, you know, kind of like it’s that and bit, you know, the real, there are things you know, I’ve got to pay the mortgage. You know, kind of like, I’ve got to, I can’t say to my kids, oh, you know what, you know, I’m going for it. But you know, so there are all sorts of different things, but, in the things that I can adjust. That’s what I would be saying to myself, actually make the adjustments now. Because, you know, before you know it, and I like to think I’ve been doing that, but I do end up regularly back on the hamster wheel. You know, and so therefore, it’s a call to keep up, you know, just do it. Keep on doing it, keep on checking in. Keep on, you know, it’s not a, it’s not a magic pill. It’s not all of a sudden, you’ll have it all sorted. It’s this, keep coming back to it, keep coming back to it. Keep checking in with yourself. Get the good counsel of others. Have people around you that will help you, but keep you know, and keep making those adjustments.
Hayley: Like so many things. It’s an ongoing practice, isn’t it? Keep returning to self-tuning in, noticing, listening, taking action? Yeah. I always remind myself as well. The thing I think about when I think about choice is the really great thing about choice is, you can always make another one. Oh, if you make a choice, you can always make another one.
Mary: I love that. My other one is, which can you tell I feel brings a smile to my face is my other strategy is, decide to decide later. Yeah. You know, sometimes I can’t make a decision. Yeah, you know, and then you can rack yourself can’t you with, kind of like oh no but I should be able to do this. So I will, in line with the old one there. It’s actually no, I’ll decide to decide later. But making sure I do not in a putting off way, you know, when it’s November and I’ve got more information at my fingertips, that’s when I’m going to you know. can like decide. But I love that kind of like just always, the good thing about choices is yeah, can always make another one. Yeah, love that. That’s gonna be one of mine in my bag.
Hayley: You’re welcome. If people want to find out more about you, get in touch or get hold of one of your wonderful books because you’ve written many books. What would be the best way of sort of engaging with you and your work?
Mary: So, I Yeah, books, books are there and books, you know, can like, so the kindness workbook, you know, what’s really nice is lots of things from they’re just freely available through the upcoming website. So, you can put those in, or you can get, you know, so you can dip your toe in and look at, look at those. Yeah, I do things like this and podcasts, well not my own, because I’m not that organised. But, you know, I kind of like, you know, there’s little bits and pieces, you know, out there that people can dip the toe into, you know, the self-confidence stuff, or the dummies things etc. So that’s, and obviously the books are out there. I’m, you know, the emails, I’m sometimes, I haven’t, I’ve still got a website that is in progress. And it just has still as a little bit of information, then it says it’s in progress. I think that’s been for the last eight years.
Hayley: A bit like all of us hey, we’re all in progress, right?
Mary: Yeah, absolutely. So, I would say Twitter. So @DrMaryWellford would be a good way of becoming part of the community as well, because what I love about Twitter is the fact that I am aware that there’s, you know, there’s problems, you know, within certain kind of like areas of Twitter and things. But there’s a community called with the hashtag 365 days of compassion. And I just, it’s a lovely community where people come in and come out and become more active and then a bit less active. But it’s a really lovely virtual space. So I’m generally, you know, I do respond to things on there. I might be a bit delayed, but the community is okay with that. And sometimes I’m absolutely on it and on there regularly, you know, so that I would say through Twitter.
Hayley: Well, it’s been an absolute pleasure chatting with you, thank you for zooming in from the UK early in the morning. It’s been really, really lovely.
Mary: I was thinking, you know how it because I was listening to one of your other podcasts and you were speaking to, you know, kind of like you weren’t speaking to a northerner from England and there was a whole different kind of like how you were speaking, because we do adapt our speaking. So I was kind of thinking some of your listeners will hear a very more northern version of your voice.
Hayley: Because I’m a northern girl you say so when I get with Northern folk, it does tend to draw out my own thicker accents.
Mary: Differently versions, different versions.
Hayley: Absolutely, absolutely. Well it’s been an absolute pleasure. Thank you so much.
Mary: No worries at all.
Thank you for sharing this time with me today. I hope your time here was helpful and supportive. If there has been something in this episode that you have found helpful, I invite you to share it with another person you think might benefit. I’d also love it if you’d like to leave a review wherever you tune in. Reviews really helped to increase awareness of podcasts, meaning I can spread helpful information more widely. All reviews are welcome and much appreciated. As I know they take time out of your day. If you’d like to be notified when the next episode airs, please use the link in the show notes to join my mailing list. Music and editing by Nyssa Ray. Thanks Nyssa. I wish you all well in your relationship with yourself. And may you go well and go gently.
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