Episode #43 Imposter No More with Dr Jill Stoddard

This transcript is computer generated and may contain errors and not be an exact representation of the audio

Hi, this is welcome to self, and I’m your host Dr. Hayley D Quinn, fellow human, business owner, and coach for women like you who want to increase your own self care and self compassion, change the relationship you have with yourself in your business, and elevate your business to a new level so you can live the full meaningful life you desire.

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My next guest, Dr. Jill Stoddard is an experienced psychologist writer, TEDx speaker, award winning teacher, peer reviewed act trainer and co host of the popular psychologists off the clock podcast. She is passionate about sharing science backed ideas from psychology to help people thrive.

Dr. Stoddard is the author of three books. The Big Book of ACT Metaphors: A Practitioners Guide To Experiential Exercises and Metaphors in Acceptance and Commitment Therapy; Be Mighty, a woman’s guide to liberation from anxiety, worry and stress, using mindfulness and her new book Impostor No More: overcome self doubt and impostorism to cultivate a successful career. Her writing has also appeared in Psychology Today, Scary Mommy; Thrive global, the good man project and mindful return. She regularly appears on podcasts as an app and as an expert source for various media outlets. She lives in Newburyport, Massachusetts, with her husband, two children and disobedient French Bulldog. I have followed her over the past few years through her podcast psychologists off the clock, a great podcast that is well worth a listen. And we then connected over social media. It’s been really lovely to meet her in person. And it’s my absolute pleasure to welcome Dr. Jill stardard to the podcast.

“Hayley Quinn”

So Hi, Jill, thank you so much for coming on to the podcast. I really appreciate you being here.

“Jill Stoddard” 3:17

Oh, it’s my pleasure. Thank you for having me.

“Hayley Quinn” 3:20

Absolutely. So could you start by telling us a little bit about yourself and what led you to doing the work that you do?

“Jill Stoddard” 3:28

Well, I am a psychologist and I wear a number of different hats in that role. I have a clinic in San Diego, California and the states. And we primarily treat anxiety disorders using Acceptance and Commitment Therapy mostly as well as cognitive behavioural therapy. And then I write so you can see one of my books and if we’re on video in the background, I’m I have my third book coming out on impostor syndrome. Next month, September 19, I don’t know when this will air so it may not be next month, maybe this month, September or last month. So September 19. And I podcast also I have a podcast psychologists off the clock, and then I do a lot of speaking and teaching and training. So I would say like my professional mission is to try to share act and psychological flexibility with as many people as I can, including those who don’t have the resources or desire to participate in individual therapy. So hence the podcast and the books and the speaking on things like that.

“Hayley Quinn” 4:32

And what led you to becoming a psychologist?

“Jill Stoddard” 4:36

Well, you know, when I was 16 years old, I think I was 16. I was in high school and we had a couple electives we could take and I took one in psychology and one in law. And they were my two favourite courses and I knew I would either I would want to take one of those two paths and then I did an internship at a law firm. The summer I think the summer between junior and senior years of high school. And I don’t know that at that time I knew I didn’t know the words patriarchy, I didn’t think about sexism. But I knew I was having an experience and kind of a good old boy type of environment. And just sort of felt like this is not for me, this is kind of yucky. So at that point, the psychology deal was sealed. And that’s, I mean, I majored in psychology. And my path has really just been in that direction ever since. And I’ve loved it. I think it’s such an incredible career.

“Hayley Quinn” 5:31

Yeah, fantastic. And what sort of led you to starting your own business as well.

“Jill Stoddard” 5:37

You know, my dad is an entrepreneur. And so I think I’ve always had like a bit of that bug, you know, I grew up watching him start and run and sell companies, he I’m a little more risk averse than he is. So I started my practice 15 years ago, but I didn’t go full time until I don’t even know when but within the last probably five, four or five years, something like that, you know, I always had another job because of that fear that like if the business dried up tomorrow, you know, I felt like I still needed a guaranteed steady paycheck. So it took me a lot longer to sort of end up fully self employed. But that’s what I’ve been doing the last several years now. Look, I think there’ll be a lot of people out there that run businesses that you know, have that same experience of not wanting to give up, you know, a stable income.

“Hayley Quinn” 6:30

So quite a common Yeah, absolutely. Takes a lot of courage, isn’t it to step out on your own? So what inspired you to write a book on impostor syndrome? Or as you’ve relabeled it impostorism. And what do you see as the most problematic feature of impostor ism?

“Jill Stoddard” 6:47

Yeah. Well, I mean, I think what drove me to write it, as with many things, I think for for us in this field is just my own experience of really recognising that, you know, I just thought, like, it made sense to me that I felt like an imposter. When I was starting my education. You know, I remember the first time noticing that I had a mentor when I was in my master’s programme, going to a doctoral programme. I had a mentor, say to me, Nigel, listen, you’re going to get to Boston to your PhD programme. And you’re going to think everyone here knows more than I do. Everyone here is smarter than me. I don’t really belong at any moment, they’re going to find out and I just went home. Oh, my God, how did you know? Like, are you reading my mind? Because I had never heard anyone talk about this before. And even at the time, he didn’t label it at all. i At that point, I don’t think I had heard the term imposter syndrome. And that just really, really was my experience. And I thought, Well, that makes sense, you know, because I really was this mediocre app applicant who shouldn’t have gotten into this programme. So of course, I feel like a fraud compared to all these other amazing people. But you know, I figured once I proved myself, you know, once I got the degree, or once I, I don’t know, racked up more and more accomplishments and knowledge and experience and expertise, that eventually I would outrun it. And that just simply hasn’t happened. And I find that fascinating. And the more people I talk to, the more I’m just blown away that people with CVS, and resumes and portfolios that are mind bogglingly impressive, I still struggle with this experience of really thinking at any minute, people are going to find out they’re not actually that great, and that there are fraud. And so you know, based on my own experience and the experience of others, I just found it really, really interesting. And oh, and you asked me what do I think is the biggest problem with it, like the most problematic feature? Um, I mean, I guess it’s sort of, it’s, it’s the function that it can serve in people’s lives, and it can show up in different ways. So, you know, I think the obvious way is when people hold themselves back, you know, if they don’t apply for the job, or the promotion, you know, because they’re afraid that they’re going to be outed as a fraud, it can lead to that stagnation, you know, not really growing in ways that are important to you. But the other way, it can show up as the exact opposite of that. And I think it’s how it was for me, it’s that getting on that hamster wheel of achievement. Like if I just get one more degree, one more award, one more, this one or this one, we’re there, then I’ll finally feel better. And it and I think it leads to burnout, you know, because we just were like chasing this feeling of added adequacy, then doesn’t really come.

“Hayley Quinn” 9:38

Yeah. Because you’ve previously written two other books be mighty and The Big Book of act metaphors. And you talk about experiencing feeling like an imposter when you were writing this new book about impostor syndrome. So now, you’ve kind of delved into this and you’ve written about that. Why do you think it is I mean, you’ve already written two books they’ve sold. You know, people like them you’ve proved that you can write. Why do you think it is that that then kind of perpetuates even on this next book? And perhaps the one after this, if you’re doing

“Jill Stoddard” 10:09

It will be the one after, I mean, it’s such an interesting question, you know, you may know, Janina Scarlett, who is part of our ACBS community, which is how you and I know each other. I think she’s written 10 or 11 books at this point, and she still feels this, I was interacting I, I can’t remember who it was now. But I was interacting with an author on Twitter many, many, many, probably a year or two ago. And she had written 27 books. And I said, so was the 27th. One, the one when you finally felt like a real writer and no longer a fraud, she said, No, but I’ll let you know if it happens. So it’s, you know, you would think that you should be able to, to, you know, the more you rack up these experiences, the less of an imposter you feel. But I think what’s happening is, the more you do, the more you’re expected to know. Right? So people come to me now saying, you’ve written three books, can I talk to you about publishing and getting an agent and this and this, I’m like, you can, but I don’t actually feel like I know that much more today than I knew when I wrote my first book, right. So, you know, I think the example I given in the book is the CEO and the male clerk, are expected to know to very different levels of information. But you know, even if you’ve risen all the way up the ranks and accompany you don’t necessarily feel like you know that much more. So it’s this kind of intimidating, you know, now I have to know, everything because I’m in this top position. And there’s a woman, Valerie Young, who wrote a book about impostor ism. And she says she was, yeah, she was. I reached out to her, I’ve never spoken to her. And I quoted her a lot in my book. But, you know, she says, one of the the added issues is now you have a reputation to defend. Yeah. And, you know, I know, for me with the books, specifically, my first book, I didn’t, you know, my first two books, I didn’t have an agent, and it was a small publisher, and I had no advance in my first book, and a tiny advance and my second one, and the third book, I have an agent, it’s a big five publisher, I got a nice advance. I was shocked by all of this. And so you think like, okay, that’s going to be the time where you go, now I’m a real writer, I got the agent, I got the big five, I got the events. But now all I think about is the pressure to earn out the advance and how like, I didn’t really deserve the advance and what are they thinking to take this chance on me? There’s no way I’m going to sell that many books, right? So the expectations rise as the sort of experiences grow, if that makes sense.

“Hayley Quinn” 12:49

And it’s interesting, because you say, you know, after three books, people think could I talk to you about publishing? And you feel like you don’t know more than you did at the first one. But of course, you do know more than you did it the first time, because you’ve had so many more experiences about it, isn’t it? So it really is these kinds of beliefs that we hold, isn’t it? I don’t know, or I have to know everything.You talk about it or

“Jill Stoddard” 13:12

Not thinking about the fact that you know what, like, I don’t know everything, but I definitely know more. But I think our brains focus on what we don’t know, you know, we, we create an expectation that we’re meant to know everything, when really, you know, we just need to know what we need to know for that particular context. And most times, that’s not everything.

“Hayley Quinn” 13:34

Absolutely. Right. Very, very tricky minds, don’t we? And you talk about evolutionary programming and our own early life experiences contributing to impostor ism. Can you speak to that a bit more for us?

“Jill Stoddard” 13:49

Yeah. Well, I think it goes with exactly what we were just talking about in terms of these tricky minds of ours. And, you know, thinking, I don’t know anything about publishing, I can’t help you this idea that when early humans, you know, Homo sapiens, we didn’t have early humans didn’t have sharp claws, sharp teeth run at fast speeds, we hate each other. Right? So early humans who hunted and gathered and travelled together had a survival advantage. And so it would make sense that we’re constantly checking our status in the group. am I adding value? Do I measure up? am I pulling my weight? Because if the answer to those questions is no, I’m risking getting ousted from my tribe. And that means certain death, and of course today, getting kicked out of the club isn’t going to be life or death. But our brains haven’t caught up with that, right? Like we still behave as if so, you know, I do think that that you know, impostor ism has a lot to do with social comparison and social comparison has been evolutionarily programmed. And then as far as, you know, early learning history experiences, you know, I think any number of of kind of childhood experiences can contribute to this. So, you know, maybe growing up with hypercritical parents, helps you, I shouldn’t say helps, but contributes to the development of an I’m not good enough story. And impostor ism is really just a specific brand of I’m not good enough. But I think even having like, very overly supportive, overpraising parents could likely contribute to this as well, right? If you have a parent that is just going crazy, for every silly little thing you do, you know, like, Oh, you went down the slide, you’re an amazing child, good for you, oh, you zipped your sweatshirt. You know, it’s like, there’s a part of you that knows you don’t really deserve the praise. And so then I think that can contribute to when you are praised. Even if you’re giving like a 10 out of 10 Standing ovation talk, you might be likely to dismiss it, like people are just being nice. Because of some of those early experiences.

“Hayley Quinn” 16:13

Yeah, absolutely. You’re talking from an evolutionary perspective that, you know, if we’re removed from a group at the moment, it’s not a life or death situation, but can feel like that social death content and for us as humans, that social connection is such an important part for us. And then also kind of looking at and thinking about, Okay, what’s the context I grew up in? What have been my early experiences that have perhaps led to me feeling these this way, and developing these beliefs about myself, and others? And I think, you know, when you mentioned, you know, they’re probably just being nice. I know, for me, I always used to think that if somebody gave me praise, it’s that, oh, they’re just being polite. Rather than thinking, Oh, maybe actually, I’ve done a good job about something.

“Jill Stoddard” 16:55

Right? Well, and I think the other piece of the early learning experience, too, and the research is not entirely clear on this. I mean, one thing I’ll say about research that you just made me think with this, the kind of social rejection can feel like social death. And when they do MRI studies, the part of the brain that lights up when you are socially rejected is the same as when you feel physical pain. Yeah. Which is fascinating, right? I mean, we are just programmed to try to avoid that at all costs. But the other piece, I think, is really important to this. And the research is not clear. You know, I think it’s fascinating, if you do a Google search on impostor syndrome, you get 10s of millions of hits. But if you look in a reputable Science database, for rigorous research studies, it’s in the hundreds. So and they’re like correlational studies, like there’s not a lot of rigorous science for this. But I do think that there’s a strong hypothesis, and I would love to see people testing this, you know, some dissertation students or something, that I think a history of marginalisation must contribute to this, you know, if you are a person of colour, if you are in the LGBTQ community, if you are a woman, you know, like women have been told they don’t belong in male spaces, black people have been told they don’t belong in white spaces, et cetera. And so it just has to be the case that if you’ve actually been given these messages overtly, and just swimming in these cultural waters, that if you’ve been told you don’t belong at the table, you’re going to worry that you don’t belong at the table, and that if you’re at the table, you’re going to be outed as a fraud. And, you know, and this is why you mentioned that I refer to imposter syndrome, quote, unquote, as impostor ism. And that’s really one of the reasons why one is that 70% of us experience this. And so if it’s the majority of humans, it can’t be a syndrome. But it also seems to be the case that it’s more common among people who have a history of marginalisation and then it’s like pathologizing, a psyche, when really, this is just a normal human experience and a result of oppression, and really shouldn’t be pathologized in that way.

“Hayley Quinn” 19:12

Absolutely. When I was chatting with Valerie young, we spoke about that and the importance of people recognising the context they’re in and how that contributes to how they’re feeling. Because you’re absolutely right. I mean, if you are, if you’ve been told you don’t belong, of course, you’re going to feel like you don’t belong. I mean, that just makes absolute sense, doesn’t it?

“Jill Stoddard” 19:31

Yep. And I think it’s interesting and not a coincidence that when Clance and IMEs identified this phenomenon in 1978. They called it the imposter phenomenon. They believed it occurred only among high achieving women. So this phenomenon that only occurred in women suddenly got rebranded in our culture as a syndrome. And I just don’t think that’s a coincidence. I just don’t you know, I do think that there- There are a lot of isms that play play a role in what’s going on with this. And it’s a systemic and organisational issue, more than it’s an individual issue, which I think is good for people to recognise, isn’t it?

“Hayley Quinn” 20:12

And actually, what why I’m feeling like this, but it’s not just about me and how I’m feeling. There are valid reasons why I’m feeling like this. Yeah, because I think it can feel quite shaming can’t it. And when we start to understand, this isn’t a me problem. This is a you know, a more generalised problem, then you can start to take some of that shame away, and then do things to work towards it. Now, in one of your chapters of your book, The chapter there is no cure, but there is an alternative. You talk about psychological flexibility, values, and changing the relationship that we have with our thoughts and feelings. Could you talk a bit more to that? Give some examples of what you mean, and how people might do this?

“Jill Stoddard” 20:52

Yeah, well, this, this also goes along with this idea that like, no matter how much we achieve, this thing never seems to go away. And so even telling yourself, but you won this award, but you got this promotion, you are good enough, you do belong here, you’re not a fraud. You know, it doesn’t seem that we can convince ourselves that this is true. And if you can, fantastic. You know, there’s one person that I interviewed Jamil, who’s a physician and just an absolutely incredible human, and he’s in the book. And, you know, he said that he found himself in kind of elite places where there was organisational messaging, that was, if you are here, you belong here, you deserve to be here. And for him, he said, that really helped him. And so that’s sort of an example of how organisations can actually have an influenceon this. But if we are not in organisations that are doing a good job of that, and were individually really suffering and struggling with this, psychological flexibility, as I’m sure you’ve talked about on the podcast before, is really that ability to be aware of and open to all thoughts and feelings, and then choosing to persist or dcist, with actions based on values, what I like to call the me you want to be what deeply matters in your heart, what you want to stand for. And so, you know, I think if you are able to change your thoughts, and that works to help you make values driven choices, great, do that. But for so many of us with these deeper feelings of inadequacy, that just doesn’t work. And so the alternative is, instead of trying to change how we feel, or the content of our thoughts, we can change our relationship to them. And so with psychological flexibility, that’s practising openness and willingness toward the feelings, and then, you know, kind of stepping back and observing thoughts and then really choosing if I listen to this thought, is it going to move me in the directions that matter? Is it going to move me in the directions of my goals? Or is it going to hold me back? You know, or is it going to get me on that hamster wheel where I’m just, you know, running and running and running and running and burning myself out burning the candle at both both ends? And so really making those like, conscious deliberate values driven choices? That are sort of like irrespective of thoughts and feelings?

“Hayley Quinn” 23:20

Yeah. Yeah. Excellent. You also talk about redefining success and holding outcomes lightly? How can Acceptance and Commitment Therapy skills help with this?

“Jill Stoddard” 23:31

Yeah, I feel like this is something that is so important for everyone in our cultures, many, you know, many Western cultures to grasp is, I do think we have this like over reliance on goal achievement as a measure of success, right? Like, well, I want to get this job or this promotion, or, you know, write this book, get this agent, whatever the case may be. And when the goal is focused on an outcome, it’s largely out of our control, right? So I have this book coming out. My biggest goal for this book, of course, would be for it to be a New York Times bestseller, right? That’s like every author’s biggest goal. But I could write a great book and do all the right things. But I think it’s like point oh, 5% of books land on the New York Times bestseller list. And that doesn’t mean the rest of them that don’t are failures, or that they’re not good books, right? There are so many factors that contribute to whether that outcome occurs. And they’re so largely out of our control. And I think that’s true for many of the things that we go after. And, you know, I tell the story. Well, actually, I’ll tell you a story. I was going to tell the story, how I was doing creative writing for 10 years trying to publish essays, never had anything published. So of course, the the outcome I wanted was to publish or to win a contest. I entered some contests, and it never happened. And you know, I think for me, for many people, they would have given up after a year or two. Right? But for me, you know, I think when you focus on your values and your why, yeah, it helps you to persevere. And so for me writing is just as much about creativity and skill building and learning about the industry, as it is about publishing. And I published my first essay in year 11. And then even more exciting, I have been to if you follow, I don’t know, we follow each other on social media. So you may have seen some of this recently, but I have tried to get up on water skis, almost every single summer since I was a little girl, probably since I was eight or nine years old. And I have never, ever not once come anywhere close. And this summer, I was debating whether I should try. And I’m 50 now and I have a really bad shoulder and I’m thinking, you know, this could be a bad idea. I might try to do this and really injure myself to the point where like, now I can’t do yoga and pilates anymore, which would devastate me. But then I also thought, but like, what if this was the year what if I could say, the year I finally got up on water skis was the year I turned 50. And I tried again, and I did it. The very first time I ever was able to waterski was the year I turned 50. But even if I didn’t think I would try again next year. And of course, there’s going to come some point where my body is just too old to be able to do that. But for me, it was more about wanting to embody qualities of perseverance, and courage and right, it’s like more about those qualities and the steps and the actions. And those are the things we can control, right? How we move our hands and our feet and our mouth. That’s pretty much it. What happens the outcome. And for me, I was modelling to my kids and my nephews, trying and trying and trying no matter what you know. And my son said, my son was so cute. He was screaming so hard for me when I got up on those skis. And for days after he was going, mommy, today, believe it you did it. And then a couple days later, you said, I’m bad at everything I try. And he had tried to get up on skis like twice in his nine years of life. Yeah. And like the second round of trying, he got up for like three seconds. And I was like, buddy, you got up longer your second try than I have in 44 decades, and then come and talk to me. Exactly, you’ve got time, just keep trying, just keep trying. And I know he will, because he saw me do that, you know, and that’s what you can control, not the outcome. And of course, you still want the outcome. And you’re freaking excited when you get the outcome. But you know, that that part is we have to hold it lightly. Because it’s not something that that we can

“Hayley Quinn” 27:57

At risk of sounding too cliche, but it really is about the journey, not the destination isn’t

“Jill Stoddard” 28:02

100%

“Hayley Quinn” 28:03

And enjoying that process. And like you say engaging with the things that feel important and meaningful to you. So even if you don’t reach the thing that you are hoping you might reach, you’ve enjoyed your life along the way. You’ve felt good about the things you’re doing along the way. Right?

“Jill Stoddard” 28:20

Yeah, I love the metaphor of like, if you love downhill skiing, you know, the goal is getting to the bottom of the hill. But if you took the chairlift to the top and a helicopter came and offered to give you a ride to the bottom, you would achieve your goal, you’d get the outcome. But like that’s not the point, right? You’re like missing the whole thing. And I think that you know, that speaks to what you’re saying is like it is about the process more than the outcome.

“Hayley Quinn” 28:46

And there’s always such learning isn’t the end all the things we do and particularly in the in the things that don’t go the way we might have hoped. I mean, that’s where the true learning isn’t the growth. They say you don’t grow. There’s no growth in happiness. That’s right.

“Jill Stoddard” 29:00

No, that’s really true, though. Well in with what’s called hedonic adaptation, and happiness is you know, happiness and that feeling is very short lives before you adapt and no longer feel it. And I think the verve and vitality that we feel when we do get the payoff is much higher when it’s been a harder road. Yeah, right. If I got up on skis the very first time I tried that I was a great skier, you know, the rest of the time, I never would have had the experience I had a couple weekends ago that was like, I was ecstatic. I mean, I can honestly say it was one of the top five moments of my entire life, and not because I really care that much about skiing, but because I had tried to do this stupid thing for so long and never do it. And that feeling was just I mean, it was like ecstasy to be able to accomplish that after such a long time.

“Hayley Quinn” 29:53

But that’s amazing. And I love that you did it at 50 You know that’s just fantastic. Isn’t it just shows because I think there’s so much stuff around women ageing, which is so just bleugh I think, you know, we need to be pro ageing. And those sort of things just help with that, I think is other women. Older women do amazing things. That’s so exciting. So how important do you think it is to have a compassionate motivation towards yourself in relation to managing impostor ism?

“Jill Stoddard” 30:26

Yeah, critically important. You know, we have these brains that think we’re supposed to beat ourselves up to motivate ourselves. And, you know, of course, the research shows the exact opposite, and that the more self critical we are, the more likely we are to give up to not achieve our goals to be less motivated. Whereas self compassion, you know, basically just self kindness, like recognising that you’re suffering, knowing you’re not alone, being kind to yourself, you know, taking that stance just has much better outcomes. You know, I love the research on the fancy term as the abstinence violation effect. But it’s that thing where you get a case of the screw, it’s right, you decide you’re gonna quit smoking, and you’re doing great. And then you cheat and have one cigarette and you go, Oh, screw it, I’m going to smoke five cartons of cigarettes and start again, you know, on New Year’s Day, even if that’s five months away. That’s the abstinence violation effect. And there’s pretty robust evidence that self criticism makes the amount that you go back to the behaviour greater and the time it takes to get back on track longer, whereas self compassion, you’re much more likely to get right back on track.

“Hayley Quinn” 31:40

Yeah, absolutely.

“Jill Stoddard” 31:41

And I love that. And I think that, you know, the same thing goes here is we are human beings, we are imperfect, we will not always get the outcomes that we desire. And you know, the more that you go after the things you really long for, the higher the stakes, the more vulnerable you’re going to feel, the scarier it’s going to be. And it’s hard to feel those feelings. And so I think to really be able to like, be gentle with yourself and patient is is just critically important for this process. Yeah, I would absolutely agree. Nobody’s gonna get arguments for me about being compassionate. So you don’t even notice it in your own life. I mean, like, since you learned about self compassion, aren’t you like, oh, yeah, this does. This is far more helpful in my life than me beating myself up. Why didn’t I learn about this in school and kindergarten?

“Hayley Quinn” 32:36

Oh, absolutely. And there’s some amazing people in the compassion field that are doing work within schools, which just warms my heart. But I mean, I’ve spoken to about this many times, in many areas, and will continue to shout it from the rooftops. But compassion has been an absolute life changer for me. I mean, it just makes so much difference. It’s like having a really wise kind, trusted friend along with you to kind of give you a pep talk when you need it and to, you know, nurture you and soothe you when you need it as well. And I think it helps you take risks, isn’t it when you know, you’ve got this part of yourself that is going to go gently with you and is going to have wisdom to share with you. It actually helps you take some of those risks. Which imposterism tries to hone or hold you back from doesn’t it? It’s like, do I take the rest? They’ll find out you’re a fraud. It’s like, oh, well if they find out a fraud, right?

“Jill Stoddard” 33:29

Yeah, it’s, you’ve got this you’re not alone.

“Hayley Quinn” 33:32

Yeah. And helping us understand that we’re actually not frauds, we have a lot of experience and qualities and skills to bring to the table. You can just feel uncomfortable. Hey, so you run your own business. You’re a podcast host of psychologists off the clock, which is a fantastic podcast, a wife a mum and no doubt you have many other roles in your life. So how do you take care of yourself amongst all the busyness

“Jill Stoddard” 34:00

I have found that the best thing for my mental and physical well being and I didn’t discover it till about two years ago. Is Pilates Pilates and yoga. I do more Pilates than I do yoga, but it has just been it’s why I got up on water skis because now I’m strong. You know, I have core strength and arm strength and leg strength and but I have found so the I’ve been on vacation the last few weeks and I’ve been doing a very good job being on vacation. But it means I haven’t been going to those classes. And I really notice that you know, if I’m, I’m sitting here with you for about an hour when I get up when we’re done talking, my body will be stiff like the tin man like I’m going to feel like I need you know, oil in my joints. And it’s because I haven’t been going to my classes. As long as I’m going to my classes. I feel you know, like it’s like the motion is the lotion and I feel you know, strong and young and able bodied and I just realise, You know, for me, I think for men, not thing I know, for many, many years, everything I did was because I felt like my body needed to be smaller, right that like exercise was about losing weight and being skinny and being what society tells you, you’re supposed to look like. And it was all very painful and a lot of struggle. And now, you know, when I think more about values and think about, like, what I want my life to look like, as I grow older, and be and I am a mum I’m 50, but my kids are still fairly young, they’re nine and 11. And I want to be able to water ski and snow ski and hike and bike and do as many active things with my kids for as long as possible, as long as they’ll let me. And, you know, I really realised that these forms of movement have just been such a gift to let me do that. And I’m so grateful that it really is no longer about, you know, struggling to make my body a certain size and is more about like really having just the most like just growing older in the healthiest way that I possibly can. And that’s been really good for my brain to write for my mental health.

“Hayley Quinn” 36:13

Yeah, I was thinking that I thought that that one activity would cover so many things. I mean, it gives you the physical well being and strength, it will be good for your mental health. You I’m assuming you go to a class, so you’re meeting with other people there. So you’ve got that social connection that, you know, is important in different levels to people. So it covers so many things, doesn’t it?

“Jill Stoddard” 36:34

Yeah. Book I interviewed Kelly McGonigal on our podcast, she wrote a book called The Joy of movement. And she’s so brilliant. She takes really complicated research and then distils it and delivers it in ways that anyone can read and understand. And it’s super interesting. And this book is like a love letter to movement. And I used to get mad when people would say like, you have to find the thing you really enjoy doing. And I’m like, I don’t enjoy doing anything. I hate exercise. And you know, I read this book and was like, what I mean, I really highly recommend it for people. It is mind blowing, mind boggling. I mean, the benefits of moving in sync to music with other people. And there’s so much research out there, I didn’t realise and, and I think it really helped me have a mindset shift, for sure. And then I did find the thing that I liked. There’s things I like after all.

“Hayley Quinn” 37:26

So So I guess that speaks as well to, we can get caught in quite a closed mind around things, aren’t we? So having that openness and curiosity can be really helpful as well. It’s like, well, maybe there are some things and I’ll, I’ll keep trying until I find the thing that I doing.

“Jill Stoddard” 37:43

And recognising the way those old narratives and old stories are constantly playing out and impacting our behaviour, often inflexible, you know, non values congruent unworkable ways.

“Hayley Quinn” 37:57

So, so much from from one class, so many things. And we talked about that being, you know, a social connection as well. How important do you think it is to have good support a good support system around you whilst you’re running your business and your life? And do you think there’s ways that impostor ism can show up in that as well, that kind of creates barriers to people seeking the support?

“Jill Stoddard” 38:19

Oh, that’s a really interesting question. Well, I think the part A of the question is, I think it’s critically important, just as a human being in general, I mean, we’re learning, you know, there’s been more and more and more science that has come out that has basically said, you know, you can look at every single variable, and how it impacts human beings, mental and physical health and well being over decades. And time and time again, the single most important predictor of all of it, is having quality relationships. Which is fascinating. And I remember Kelly Wilson, who’s an act person talking about how when they studied antidepressants, and in animals right before you can do human trials, they tried them on animals, and they use rats, because rats are very similar to humans in a lot of ways. And he joked, you can’t recruit depressed rats, you have to make the rats depressed. And all they did to make the rats depressed was to isolate them. Yeah, just isolate them. Right, like, and they’re social animals, like we’re social animals, which is why we’re similar. And so So I think that social support is absolutely critical, critically important for all of the things I think with respect to imposters and where I see it being the most helpful is when you really struggle with your own psychological flexibility. Getting that support from other people, I think, you know, can can really bolster your willingness to do scary things, even if you’re really struggling with your own, you know, fear and vulnerability and self stories that that it’s, you know, not a good idea. Um, now I just forgot what was the second part of the question

“Hayley Quinn” 40:01

I’m curious is Do you think there’s ways that imposterism can actually create barriers, though, for people to seek out that support? Because I imagine I would be.

“Jill Stoddard” 40:11

Yeah, I think so. I mean, because I think really what impostorism is so often about is linked to, is linked to social comparison. And so, you know, one example that comes to mind is like, with parenting, and you’ve got, like, the Pinterest parents, and that, you know, like I see, I think of a friend who like throws the most incredible birthday parties. And when I see those pictures online, and I’m the woman, I, you know, the mom who like buys the cupcakes at the grocery store, or a much more relevant example recently has been like, every time my kids a birthday party to go to I forget to buy a gift until the day of the darn party. And, you know, that kind of thing is like, God, why am I such a failure? You like, I mean, my voice isn’t that strong, but it’s like, why can I get my act together with this stuff, every other parent seems to be able to do this, like they’re thoughtful, they think of their you know, the kid birthday party in advance and go get the, and I’m getting the Amazon gift card online, 10 minutes before we have to walk out the door. And so I think that if you let it, that kind of assumption that like, all the other moms have it together, and I don’t could make me feel like I can’t, like, you know, enter into their group of the Pinterest moms, you know. So I think it can like in that social comparison way, if you let an you know, I tell a story in the book of a really good friend of mine now, Denise, but we met professionally, she kind of sought me out for mentorship, really. And over a long period of time, we became friendly. And the first time she invited me to her house, we went in, and she was just like, oh, sorry for the mess. And you know, she hadn’t picked up and the house wasn’t clean. Like you could tell a family of four with two little kids lived in this house. And in that moment, I never loved her more, I felt so connected to her. Right. I was like, Oh, thank God, you know, if her house had been immaculate, and she was serving the like, perfect homemade organic meal, and her kids were super well behaved and quiet, you know, that would have really triggered that, like, Oh, I’m a bad mom, this is what a good mom looks like, and I don’t have my shit together. And it would have I think damaged the bond, like created a bit of disconnection. And you know, and it’s, it’s in that, like, when you really understand that we are all imperfect, and we all have strengths and weaknesses. And to be will it like to know that even if that’s not what you’re seeing on social media, or at the bake sale? Yeah, you know, and in a way to like, hopefully not let it interfere with some of those social connections. But I think it can if you get caught up in those stories, absolutely.

“Hayley Quinn” 42:53

I think this is a good time to shout out to all the moms out there that think that they’re failing when absolutely, you know, and most people have not got their shit together. But I think as well, I work with a lot of women business owners, and I think this can come in where they feel like they don’t belong in a particular group of other business owners, or they they struggle to even call themselves a business owner. Yeah. And I think that’s some of that, isn’t it of you know, I don’t belong here, or I’m doing this, but my business isn’t as good as other people’s business, or I don’t know what I’m really doing in business. And it saddens me because it’s like, well, if you if you own a business, you’re a business owner. I mean, that’s just by nature of the fact that you own a business. And really people finding ways like you say, of changing this relationship between the thoughts and the feelings, so that they can connect in the groups, even if they go in feeling like they don’t belong, or they shouldn’t be there. So they can actually discover that they do belong. And they are in that group.

“Jill Stoddard” 43:57

Yes. And I think if you’re saying to yourself, Well, I’m not a real business owner, because this is a side hustle, and I don’t support myself with the amount of money I make, and that person actually makes a lot of money and so I don’t belong. That person who makes a lot of money, I guarantee you has the exact same story. It’s just about something else. Yeah. Right. And they’re, they’re comparing their themselves to you. And they think, you know, like, You’re so much better at branding. You’ve only been in business for a year and you’re already doing a much better job with your social media. I should be way better at social media. I’ve been in business for 10 years. Right? So no matter where you are on that, I don’t know what to call it, you know, trajectory. Everybody does the same thing. You know, and I think that’s point that’s to your point, what you’re saying is like to know, none of us are alone. And it is the rare case that you know, we imagine that these people are like Oh, I I am a real business owner and I have done this amount of money for this amount of years and this and I’m perfect at everything and you are just a mere peon who doesn’t know anything. And the only people doing that are like a whole narcissists. And is that a group you want to be in, right? And like the people who aren’t that they’re all doing the same thing, no matter how long they’ve been doing it, how much money they do or don’t make what, right. We all do things better and worse than others, and we all feel insecure. Absolutely. I think that’s a really important point for people to say, hey, yeah. So I had a friend who asked me, she and I went to undergrad university together. And I interviewed her for my book. And you know, she’s this like badass CEO. She was a vice president of a huge pharmaceutical company, just like, kick ass, right? And I’m interviewing her about like community and mentorship and different things. And she said to me, she was dead serious. She said, chill. But how do you know if you have imposter syndrome? Or you’re really an imposter. And she was saying that because she thought she didn’t have impostor syndrome. She was actually an impostor, because everyone she was she’s in like, pharmaceuticals and healthcare, and everyone she works with has PhDs or at least master’s degrees, and she just has her bachelor’s, but like the fact that she’s gotten to where she’s gotten with just a bachelor’s to me means she’s even more badass. But to her, makes her feel less than which is just sort of mind boggling, you know? Absolutely.

“Hayley Quinn” 46:30

Absolutely. So this next question, I asked to all my guests, and I love this one. If you can meet your 80 year old, 80 year old self, what do you think she would say to you?

“Jill Stoddard” 46:44

You know, if you asked me this question, 10 years ago, I might have had a different answer. But there’s something that has happened at 50. Yeah, that just felt like I feel like I am in the best place in my life. I give far more cares, I’ll try to keep it G rated about what other people think I’m like, comfortable in my own skin. I know what I want. I go after it even when I’m afraid. So I think if I keep on this trajectory, I think my 80 or my 80 year old self would say, you keep on doing exactly what you’re doing.

“Hayley Quinn” 47:19

Oh, that’s beautiful.

“Jill Stoddard” 47:21

Like take risks be vulnerable.

“Hayley Quinn” 47:25

So Jill, finally, if people want to find out more about your get in touch, where can they find you and engage with your work.

“Jill Stoddard” 47:33

They can find everything they need at WWW.Jillstoddard.com. So it’s just my name.com. And my I have a newsletter that I send monthly, more like every once every six to eight weeks because I tend to be behind. But I do little tips about that or act based psychological flexibility, imposter stuff. It’s short. So that’s a way to keep in touch with me. All my socials are there as well. Books are there, I have some quizzes. So there are five, Valerie young identified five different types of imposter and I created a quiz around that that people can take at the at that website if they want. Fantastic. And I’ll put links, I’ll put links in the show notes as well for that. So if you could distil it down to one piece of advice, and I know that can be a bit tricky. What would you most want our listeners to take away from our conversation today? I love this question. I don’t think it’s tricky. And in fact, I’ve already thought about it. I did a talk for some teenagers. And they said I want them to be able to walk away with something that they can really use. But you only have 20 minutes, I was like, okay, no pressure. But you know what I decided I thought, gosh, if I could teach human beings one thing that I think would absolutely change their life. It’s getting comfortable being uncomfortable. Yeah, like if you think about all the things that would change in your life, if you were willing to feel uncomfortable, right, the conversations you would have the risks you would take. So I really think that’s, you know, if people can learn some willingness skills and how to practice acceptance, acceptance with the sensations and emotions and urges, etc, that they don’t want to feel it just it would open and expand people’s options. So, so so much.

“Hayley Quinn” 49:23

Yeah, I’d absolutely agree. I speak a lot to people around. It’s not about getting comfortable. It’s about being willing to be uncomfortable, so that you can do the things in life that matter to you. Yeah, exactly.

“Jill Stoddard” 49:35

Whether or not whether they work out or not. And it’s this idea that like, but if I feel anxious, I must run away. But really like your anxiety is telling you you’re exactly where you’re meant to be. Because if you weren’t, if you didn’t care about it, you wouldn’t be anxious about it, right? It’s like this bright red neon arrow that this matters to you. So it’s that like emotional pain is often directly write to your values and what matters. Yeah, fantastic.

“Hayley Quinn” 50:04

Thank you so much. I’m excited about your book coming out. I’m sure people are gonna find it really helpful. It’s a great achievement. And it’s been an absolute pleasure chatting with you as well.

“Jill Stoddard” 50:22

Thank you so much for having me. My absolute pleasure. I wish you best the best with everything that you do. And hopefully we’ll speak again soon. I’d love it.

“Hayley Quinn” 50:34

Thank you for sharing this time with me today. I hope your time here was helpful and supportive. If there has been something in this episode that you found helpful, I invite you to share it with another person you think might benefit. If you’ve benefited in any way from the podcast, please do me a favour and share my pod some wealth by giving us a five star rating and review. ratings, reviews and shares really helped to increase the awareness and reach of the podcast, meaning I can spread helpful information more widely. All Reviews are welcome and much appreciated as I know they take time out of your day. If you’d like to be notified when the next episode airs, please use the link in the show notes to join my mailing list. If you have any particular topics you’d like to learn more about, or guests you’d like to hear from, please reach out and let me know I’d love to hear from you.

Music and editing by Nyssa Ray thanks Nyssa I wish you all well in your relationship with yourself and your business. And may you go well and go gently

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